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Old 07-02-2013, 07:54 PM   #4351
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
You tell me: what is the authority keeping you from murdering for instance?
But is "authority" the only thing keeping you from murdering? And if so, do you feel that this is true for most people?

Last edited by dugan; 07-02-2013 at 08:28 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 09:26 PM   #4352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
But is "authority" the only thing keeping you from murdering? And if so, do you feel that this is true for most people?
Yes. That is the only thing keeping me from murdering. If there is no absolute God, there are not absolute ethics.

Most people simply don't carry out their atheism to its utmost conclusion. However, men like Marx, Lenin Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. have carried out their atheistically beliefs to their utmost conclusion, resulting in the brutal murder of millions, maybe billions of people. Note that they were atheists. A true Christian ruler will never carry out such atrocities because he is ruled over by a higher authority, God. Those who are atheist have no higher authority, they are their own Gods. Whether it be the great or powerful like Stalin or the average atheist on the street, they have no authority but themselves.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 09:38 PM   #4353
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Pr∞f:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Don't bother, I have asked and never get an answer. Not one of the "pro-science" (anti-religion) group has been able to answer any question like you asked yet. They demand proof on a topic that is based on faith yet cannot give proof on a topic that is based on empirical evidence.
Some answers will never have proof so we create our own(.) We come from nothing and go back, Period! Infinitely debatable as "facts" change throughout infinite time. And, if u'll never get that blame (changing, debatable\)"grammar"(even if it's just over your head)...

"They" demand ∞\*

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-02-2013 at 10:38 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 09:54 PM   #4354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Yes. That is the only thing keeping me from murdering. If there is no absolute God, there are not absolute ethics.

Most people simply don't carry out their atheism to its utmost conclusion. However, men like Marx, Lenin Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. have carried out their atheistically beliefs to their utmost conclusion, resulting in the brutal murder of millions, maybe billions of people. Note that they were atheists. A true Christian ruler will never carry out such atrocities because he is ruled over by a higher authority, God. Those who are atheist have no higher authority, they are their own Gods. Whether it be the great or powerful like Stalin or the average atheist on the street, they have no authority but themselves.
You\we-all rely on debatable definitions of things and the dictionaries\* will be rewritten, fact.

"gods" will not stop murder\greed\* trust me on that, fact. Only (Kindergarten age 1-25\)K1-25 for all over a long time, maybe??? Or+, religion creates more armageddon. The possibilities from here are endless,,, like "religions"...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-02-2013 at 11:16 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 10:00 PM   #4355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Yes. That is the only thing keeping me from murdering. If there is no absolute God, there are not absolute ethics.
So tell me, which is the better person? The person who doesn't inflict suffering on others because they know that it is wrong, or the person who's only reason for not inflicting suffering on others is because they're afraid of going to hell if they do?

Morality and ethics have nothing to do with God. If you think they do, then you are not a moral person, you just do what you're told because you're afraid of being punished, which is just sad.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 10:48 PM   #4356
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(E.g.) If u train a dog with fear of water guns and rolled up newspaper you get a crappy dog vs training with patience and love!!! Changing "facts" O no no no

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-03-2013 at 05:08 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 01:11 AM   #4357
sycamorex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Yes. That is the only thing keeping me from murdering. If there is no absolute God, there are not absolute ethics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCmgS__hEd8
 
Old 07-03-2013, 01:19 AM   #4358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Yes. That is the only thing keeping me from murdering.
I'm sorry to hear that.

It's hard to believe, though, that the inevitable response from society isn't a factor for you at all, and that you've found the deterrence side of law enforcement to be completely ineffective.

(Your argument, if valid, would not establish that the existence of your god is more likely. It would establish only that it's more desirable).

Last edited by dugan; 07-03-2013 at 01:54 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 04:30 AM   #4359
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Did Penn Jillettes take on rape and murder without religion get a look in yet? Basically the same arugment here... www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwebTX3rk3E‎

How Religion thinks it invented morals and ethics is beyond me. They took some good, common sense ideas about bot being a dick (and many many about being a dick) and integrated them into their religious texts. They didn't invent them.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 08:49 AM   #4360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
As far as nature goes, it is easy to see the existence of a God. ... However, where did that first atom come from? It had to come from somewhere! Perhaps, he says, it had no beginning. Ah, but now he is saying that an atom.....is infinite! There is no getting away from the fact that there is an infinite being or thing when it comes to nature. Something had to come, before time, and make the world. The Christian religion is really the only religion that accounts for this. The Christian religion teaches that God existed before time, that he is an infinite being, who created the world to show forth his power and majesty. ...
Where did God come from? Why is assuming God always existed better than assuming atoms always existed? What if you just assumed God is a nickname for all the atoms in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
What is the ultimate authority behind "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" According to you, that was said by one piece of cosmic dust to another piece of cosmic dust, thus according to you don't have to obey it.

You tell me: what is the authority keeping you from murdering for instance? Why is murder wrong?
I don't want to be murdered so I don't murder other people, that way everybody is better off.

Why does an authority saying something automatically make it right? If God tells you to murder does that make it okay?


Quote:
Since you know so much more about science than I do, you tell me. Where does the world as we know it come from? In short, I want to know what the ultimate source of the world and everything in it is.
Is an answer of "I don't know" not acceptable? I consider it a more honest version of "God did it".
 
Old 07-03-2013, 09:30 AM   #4361
acid_kewpie
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Why should a religion "accounting" for the creation of the first atom or whatever somehow validate the religion itself? I can make all manner of unfounded statements to "account" for anything I feel like. the logic there is so utterly reverse engineered it's ludicrous.

Quote:
However, where did that first atom come from?
I don't know! Isn't that brilliant!? Isn't it going to be fascinating trying to out??

Science is a reason to ask questions, your religion appears to be a reason to not ask them. All you seem to be suggesting is that you want to be given a few stories to stop you needing to think about things.

Last edited by acid_kewpie; 07-03-2013 at 09:32 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 10:28 AM   #4362
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I don't want to be murdered so I don't murder other people, that way everybody is better off.
Let me qualify this so that it moots Nbiser's point about needing an "ultimate authority" to deter murder even more:

Quote:
I don't want to be murdered in retaliation so I don't murder other people, that way everybody is better off.
In societies where murder is common, your risk of being murdered yourself are high.

Last edited by dugan; 07-03-2013 at 10:30 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 10:36 AM   #4363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
Why should a religion "accounting" for the creation of the first atom or whatever somehow validate the religion itself? I can make all manner of unfounded statements to "account" for anything I feel like. the logic there is so utterly reverse engineered it's ludicrous.


I don't know! Isn't that brilliant!? Isn't it going to be fascinating trying to out??

Science is a reason to ask questions, your religion appears to be a reason to not ask them. All you seem to be suggesting is that you want to be given a few stories to stop you needing to think about things.
I am not trying to account for religion with this scientific argument. I am merely trying to prove that there is a god.

You believe in the infinite, just as I do. you can't deny that the infinite exists. If atoms are infinite, why can't there be an infinite God?
 
Old 07-03-2013, 10:44 AM   #4364
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I am only going answer arguments that take my whole argument. You can pick the individual parts of my arguments to pieces quite easily. It is harder to take my arguments as a whole.

The old saying, a threefold cord can't be easily broken applies here. You can pick my arguments to pieces as much as you like, but you won't be able to defeat the whole argument, which is what counts. I am pasting my arguments from the last thread here to make it easier to answer my whole argument.


From Post number 1: "I don't have the time to go through all of the arguments in this thread. However, I am willing to hear the arguments of the atheists and to counter them in a logical manner. Of course, I will give my own arguments against atheism as well.

As a Christian, I think that there are three major areas that prove the existence of a god, and particularly, the Christian God. The first is through philosophy, the second is through nature, and the third is through the scriptures. I will get around to the original topic of the thread in my section on the scriptures.

From a philosophic stand point, there is a strong argument for for the existence of a God. Let us take a brief look at the stand point that the atheist has on life: he believes that there is no supreme all powerful being, no overriding power.......and if he carries out his belief to the logical end, there is no authority at all, everyone is a piece of cosmic dust, that will die eventually......and go into nothingness. If he carries out this reason to its obvious conclusion, there is no right or wrong, no sense of ethics; as a matter of fact, he would believe that there is nothing wrong with killing, raping, and destroying. In short, he believes that there is nothing wrong with killing 30 kids and adults in a school shooting. I'm not saying that all atheists take their belief system to its logical conclusion; I'm just saying that if they are consistent atheist, they will take their reasoning to its final end.......total destruction of the world as we know it. However, Christians believe in an all supreme and all powerful being, who sets the standards of right and wrong, and will punish and reward accordingly.

As far as nature goes, it is easy to see the existence of a God. Let us look at the dilemma that the average atheist is in. He believes in evolution, and scoffs at the idea of an infinite being who made all things. However, when he looks carefully at evolution, he can't get away from the infinite! He believes that the world was formed from atoms and molecules, that molded themselves into large physical bodies, and that eventually cells developed. However, where did that first atom come from? It had to come from somewhere! Perhaps, he says, it had no beginning. Ah, but now he is saying that an atom.....is infinite! There is no getting away from the fact that there is an infinite being or thing when it comes to nature. Something had to come, before time, and make the world. The Christian religion is really the only religion that accounts for this. The Christian religion teaches that God existed before time, that he is an infinite being, who created the world to show forth his power and majesty. Other religions either fail to give a satisfactory account of this, or don't mention it at all. It is thus easily seen that there had to be an infinite substance, thing, or being......and that the Christian religion is the only religion to successfully account for this.

Now that I have laid down the foundations for my final, most on topic, and most important section, we can proceed to examine the scriptures themselves. There must needs be something infinite, and something eternal, some sort of lawgiver or judge, who can control the earth. The Bible lays down who this is, and how he does things. In the Bible, we see the creation of the world, and from here, the Bible flows in an uninterrupted flow, with the only incongruities in the text imagined ones that can be cleared up by looking at the original Greek and Hebrew texts and at other passages in scripture. We see prophecy predicting the coming of Christ as far back as the time of King David, who, by the way, is recognized by almost all historians to have ruled in Israel......with all sorts of archaeological support for this fact. In the Psalms, most of which were written by David or in his time period, are an unlimited number of references to Christ. We can see references to Christ in all of the major and minor prophets, even with references to the kind of death that he was going to die. Christ himself, confronted his Jewish opponents with these prophecies, and, just as was prophesied, God blinded their eyes. Today many have blinded their own eyes, and darkened their own hearts to keep from seeing and understanding the truth. The apostle Paul talks about this the Book of Romans, Chapter 2, verses 4 &5: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God;" And also in Romans 9:20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus?"

In conclusion. A I stated a the beginning I am willing to hear and answer logical arguments. However, as you write back, remember Romans 9:20 "Who art thou that repliest against God."

From Post number 2: "
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
A total non-sequitur. Ethics have nothing to do at all with a god. One can be an ethical person without ever believing in god, for example based on the simple "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" I personally rather find it rather scary how many believers only don't do the things they accuse atheists of wanting to do because of the fear of a supreme being, instead basing this on their own morality.
Sorry Tobi, you didn't address the issue. What is the ultimate authority behind "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" According to you, that was said by one piece of cosmic dust to another piece of cosmic dust, thus according to you don't have to obey it.

You tell me: what is the authority keeping you from murdering for instance? Why is murder wrong?

Quote:
Sorry, but reading this it seems to me that you neither know much about the science behind this (by the way, the christian god and evolution are not mutual exclusive, ask the pope), nor do you seem to know much about other religions, when you claim that the Christian religion is the only one that accounts for this (at least Judaism shares the same creation story with Christianity).
I don't care about what the pope says. He is an apostate and an heretic, who leads others astray with his false doctrine.

Since you know so much more about science than I do, you tell me. Where does the world as we know it come from? In short, I want to know what the ultimate source of the world and everything in it is.

Quote:
You realize that the authors of the gospels were well aware of those predictions and had no problem at all to adapt their stories to them?
Yes, maybe they did know. But this doesn't mean that they made it up. There were hundreds of witnesses at the time who saw Christ, and the miracles that he performed. Josephus, one of the most recognized historians of the era, recognized Christ, and his death on the cross. Just as prophesied.

All but one of these men died for what they wrote.....if they admitted that they lied, they would've have been saved, and even treated with great honor. However, they suffered cheerfully and willingly for what they wrote, never admitting that they lied, even when under torture. Once again, would you be willing to die for a lie that you said; even if you would be given pardon for confessing?"
 
Old 07-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #4365
acid_kewpie
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Dude, those arguments are just laughable. Genuinely funny. There's no point bothering with any one word of them, as fun as it would be try. How... how can you even begin to think you can say how atheists view human life when it is manifestly apparent that its not correct?? The mind boggles... You're just nutty.

I do quite like how to say "remember Romans whatever whatever" as if we are supposed to know your holy text ourselves. nice touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
I am merely trying to prove that there is a god.
Ha, good luck with that!

Last edited by acid_kewpie; 07-03-2013 at 11:14 AM.
 
  


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