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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 168 28.92%
Deist 18 3.10%
Theist 23 3.96%
Agnostic 120 20.65%
Atheist 252 43.37%
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:23 AM   #5101
jdkaye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suicidaleggroll View Post
Saw this this morning, thought it was an interesting read:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.U-JDYTUrhSx
Really? I was somewhat taken aback by this remark:
Quote:
You might think that America would be fertile ground for the rise of atheism. After all, the United States is the most scientifically advanced society in human existence, and as far as atheism has a history—and it is an oddly uncharted one—it is popularly believed to be of slow, steady scientific advance.
All in all, a rather facile analysis, no?
jdk
 
Old 08-07-2014, 01:09 AM   #5102
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The "language" says other... (e.g. or even LQ.)

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-11-2014 at 10:49 PM.
 
Old 08-07-2014, 08:03 AM   #5103
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkaye View Post
Really? I was somewhat taken aback by this remark ...
Yeah, no kidding! I'm an American, and my only response to such puffery is: " " (There seems to be no emoticon for "puke," which is probably a very good thing.)

We're all human, and we all look up at the stars even as we also peer into microscopes and as we sit around the coffee-pot doing quantum physics in our heads. There's nothing "regional" about that. There are religions in every human culture that we have ever encountered or excavated. Mighty bastions of science and reason sprang up from the same earth. Some are still there.

So, let's do the math:
Quote:
( "Religion", "The Lack Thereof", "Quiet Practice Of")
==is a disjoint-set to==
( "Ignorance", "Stupidity", "Intelligence")
==is a disjoint-set to==
( "Interest in Science", "The Lack Thereof")
Three independent factors here, which merely add-up to the observation that we are human. "Only briefly" here on this planet, and pretty much, "blind as a bat." (Which 'blind' bat, by the way, can fly unerringly in the total dark, so there.)

And, y'know, I'd say that we should remember that there is more-than-one way to "know" something: intuition, deduction, instinct, "a leap of faith." We humans practice all of these. And let the records show, as they do, that "religion" is universal in human culture. So, there is clearly a need for these multiple ways of thinking, and they simply can't be called "wrong." That highly-religious person might think very differently than you do, and he might be trying to save you from Hell. Neither of you are right. Neither of you are wrong. Certainly not "one at the exclusion of the other."

It must also be significant ... and, I like it ... that this thread is today five thousand, one hundred and three very-engaging (mostly) posts long. And counting. "Look at what's happening, right here!" (And they saw that it was Good.™)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 08-07-2014 at 08:05 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2014, 11:15 AM   #5104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
I do agree with the wider point that there are multiple definitions of Christianity, as there are for some other things people get passionate about, such as "open source" or "science."
Do you mean to say that not all churches dance with poisonous snakes in their mouths and drink strychnine? :P



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
On a sort-of-related note, re: Religions are dogmatic, science is not

As a teenager I had some generally good science teachers whose main vice was a tendancy to answer questions with the phrase "You don't need to know that." Meanwhile, I was attending a church that taught the importance of study and "finding out for yourself" rather than relying on others' opinions, even if the "others" were prophets or apostles.

If I hadn't been so interested in science I would probably have concluded that science was dogmatic but religion was not - an opinion which would be reinforced by at least some of the "scientists" who appear on TV.
FWIW teachers, even science teachers are not necessarily scientists and these days the mantra of "you don't need to know that" is commonplace in schools because teachers are told to focus on what will be on the tests that will determine their funding. Prior to such a state of affairs, even a truly knowledgeable teacher of science had to wrestle with opening "cans of worms" that would only confuse the issue rather than shed light on it.... at least until their math skills caught up. Math is the language of Science and when translated into words a lot gets lost or distorted.

On a wider scale, such as Popular Science like on TV even serious scientists must sometimes be a little loose with deeper subjects and bow to some recognition of "common perception". A good example of this is the reboot of Cosmos featuring Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Like it or not, and I suspect he hates it, the term "Big Bang" which was coined by Astronomer Fred Hoyle as a derogatory term meant to derail Catholic Georges LeMaitre's theories, is still with us. We are stuck with a derogatory term to describe something that was apparently not big nor banged. The Cosmos reboot is overall quite good especially for doing what it was needed for and designed to do - offer counters and evidence for a few ongoing battles like "human caused Global Climate Change" and "Evolution" that should have been laid to rest decades ago. The Jury is in, Folks, they are both real and reasonably accurate.

Showing the overwhelming evidence for "burning non-questions" plus trying to stimulate interest in societies (and sub-sets) that have been overwhelmed with religious propaganda, heavily based in the effort to rename "Creationism" to "Intelligent Design" and sell it as at the very least an equal to Science and continue the indoctrination at grade school levels. is what Cosmos was/is about so perhaps we can forgive Mr. Tyson's bow to showmanship for the masses. If those masses don't even begin to grasp real Science, they will never progress to the point to get clearer, more accurate descriptions of what new theory revisions are being investigated.

Perhaps you can find it in yourself to forgive your Science teachers who often must walk a tightrope to stay employed.
 
Old 08-07-2014, 11:31 AM   #5105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkaye View Post
Really? I was somewhat taken aback by this remark:

Re: "the United States is the most scientifically advanced society in human existence"

All in all, a rather facile analysis, no?
jdk
Facile is a good description, especially when we consider the many ways in which America has sunk into the abyss of Mysticism, but it is also a fairly easy generalization when we consider Space Exploration to date, Computers and The Internet, all of which are either American inventions or existing bars raised much higher by American efforts. That said, no Nation stands completely alone, especially these days, and I consider that an important, even necessary, trend. This seems especially so when we see what cooperation can accomplish. Lately the ESA has consistently equaled or even exceeded NASA's efforts and it should not go unnoticed that America scuttled the Super Collider project causing a minor reversal to the "Braid Drain" of the 60s and 70s when the LHC was funded and built in Europe.

What may seem at first a self-centered bragging and posturing is in the process of becoming a sad commentary on from what heights we have fallen. America is teetering on the edge of "Has Beens". It is nothing to be proud of nor cheer for. It needs to be fought and some of that fight is right here in this thread, since this "disease" is also not limited to one set of shores.
 
Old 08-07-2014, 11:44 AM   #5106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkaye View Post
Really? I was somewhat taken aback by this remark:
lol, yeah I had to do a double-take on that sentence as well, it made me chuckle.

But that aside the basic argument is that people, as a whole, don't choose their religion (or lack thereof) based on studying the facts and making an informed, rational decision. Instead it appears to be more of a knee-jerk reaction to the sociopolitical world around them..."Well I certainly don't want to be associated with that!" And it appears to go both ways, both away from AND toward religion, as the case may be. And in that way, the argument is that atheism's rise is not due to the advancement of science and understanding, but rather a simple rejection of religion. Perhaps our new-found understanding of the world simply gives a reasonable alternative for those seeking to flee from religion (which they would have been doing anyway, regardless of the advancement of science).

Now I'm not saying this argument holds water, just that I thought it was interesting. The correlation between the the death of Stalin in 1953, the addition of "under God" to the pledge of allegiance in 1954, and "in God we trust" being adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956, the growth of atheism correlating better with religious oppression (not oppression OF the religious, but oppression BY the religious) than with any scientific "golden age", etc.

Last edited by suicidaleggroll; 08-07-2014 at 11:49 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2014, 08:28 PM   #5107
sundialsvcs
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[QUOTE=enorbet;5216979]Facile is a good description, especially when we consider the many ways in which America has sunk into the abyss of Mysticism ...[/QUOTE}

A nation as a "straw man." Interesting.

But nations, after all, are merely "collections of millions of real people," no matter what their news (sic ...) agencies may say for or about them. You might say that the "(Fox) News Talk" features a lot of articles on something like that, but it's utterly impossible to characterize any "nation" that way. Not mine, not yours, not any of them.

They're as wonderfully different as people can be ... and, uhh ... journalists are not.

Quote:
America is teetering on the edge of "Has Beens." It is nothing to be proud of nor cheer for. It needs to be fought and some of that fight is right here in this thread, since this "disease" is also not limited to one set of shores.
"Has Beens?" There's this uncomfortable fact of life called aging, yes. Nor is it limited to any shores. Unfortunately, everyone turns into an Old Phart, if they manage to live long enough to do so. And once again, this typecasting is really just a product of the media-machines ... which are, of course, universal.

Don Henley's classic song, Dirty Laundry, said it best, and with a wonderfully sardonic sense of humor:
Quote:
... bubble-headed bleach blonde comes on at five /
Tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye /
It's interesting when people die! Give us Dirty Laundry!

Can we film the operation? Is the head dead yet? /
The boys in the newsroom got a running bet. /
Get the widow on the set! We need Dirty Laundry!

© Warner-Chappell
Yep, say anything, as long as it's simple, it's tantalizing, and we can use it to sell shaving-cream. That's true the world over. But it's not really how any group of real people, really are.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 08-07-2014 at 08:29 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2014, 10:48 PM   #5108
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Say religion ended tomorrow. Would we still need borders?
 
Old 08-09-2014, 01:09 AM   #5109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Say religion ended tomorrow. Would we still need borders?
What if religion never existed? would be much suitable question then.
 
Old 08-09-2014, 10:27 AM   #5110
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Religion would have to exist to learn how to answer the question(, mine not imaginary ones..).
 
Old 08-09-2014, 02:32 PM   #5111
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@sundialsvcs - While I agree that gross generalizations can be dicey and even given that statistics can be weighted, if we don't get too far over the top, pay attention to trends, and not try to get too exacting about actual percentages, statistics still do have value, and one of those is the National Census.

Trends - We landed men on our Moon in 1969 and Wernher von Braun had preliminary but exacting plans for the next generation Saturn to put men on Mars by 1990. The last Saturn is rusting away, men haven't ventured beyond earth orbit again for over 40 years, there are no serious plans for men to visit the Moon again, let alone Mars for the first time for an indefinite period of time.

Europe, many of whose countries have more precarious economies than the US, still manages to pass legislation (despite complex politics) design, fund and build the LHC while the US abandoned the SuperCollider. The ESA now routinely advances Science at a rate NASA used to deliver but apparently can no longer muster.

Even though a disturbingly large percentage of Americans actually basically believe prehistory was much like The Flinstones, and despite the Scopes Trial in 1925, we still have massive lobbying to teach Creationism in public schools alongside Science as an equal. Some 30-43% of Americans deny Evolution, while well over 50% believe in Angels and Demons who walk the earth interacting and intervening with/for and against humans.

On a more fundamental level Math and Science test scores have dropped consistently for decades. On a college web forum, someone recently posted an observation that "My generation is more knowledgeable about Super Heroes and The Zombie Apocalypse than how to balance a home budget" and virtually all respondents agreed whether their response was irate or a guffaw.

While I agree that The News, basically all of it, has become entertainment instead of serious reporting (and even if I ignore that trend speaks volumes all of itself) the single fact that Fox news exploded into popularity reveals a ready audience.

These trends may not be entirely just a US phenomenon, but I live here and know more about it than other countries even though I seek off shore News often to try to get a more balanced view, and I am aware that in general Europeans for example consider the US to be entrenched in fundamentalist religion and not a diminishing trend.

Some of this may simply be the fruition of conflicts predicted in such works as "The Third Wave" regarding the polarization and upheaval when base systems change in fundamental ways as in from Hunter/Gatherer > Agricultural, ---- Agricultural > Industrial, and ---- Industrial > Information. Since the US has been at the forefront of this shift from Industrial to Information, maybe we are just "on the front lines".

I see these patterns all around me, in everyday life, not just on the news and I do not have faith in "the Best of All Possible Worlds" to put blinders on, so while it is not a certainty, I submit it is "betting with the House".

Last edited by enorbet; 08-10-2014 at 01:41 AM. Reason: spacing and clarity
 
Old 08-09-2014, 02:53 PM   #5112
jamison20000e
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Wow, when did i last give u rep: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to enorbet again."?
 
Old 08-09-2014, 03:20 PM   #5113
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"Holy" shit the Purge Anarchy is a good movie y'all!
 
Old 08-09-2014, 03:28 PM   #5114
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Edit: not that I want to "glorify" this shit!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-09-2014 at 03:34 PM.
 
Old 08-22-2014, 10:46 AM   #5115
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@jamison20000e: Nice movies. Try this aswell -> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0811106/ <-
If people are forced to steal will it still count as eternal sin?(article) Just another puzzle regarding 10 commandments
 
  


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