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Old 07-02-2013, 07:32 AM   #91
brianL
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????????? What?????
 
Old 07-02-2013, 07:44 AM   #92
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@jamison20000e: It would definitely help us all to understand you if you would use the English grammar in your posts.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 09:57 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I'm pretty certain it's generally accepted by serious scholars that Isaiah wrote the foremost chapters, more than the first 9.
No, since there's nothing like an original verifiable signature on any of the documents, they're simply pseudonymous. We can't verify who wrote them. Nor do we have any way to know whether the text in our hands is, or is not, actually what "whoever it was" wrote, "whenever it was." We don't, and literally can't, know the entire provenance of any such texts.

In most texts of this sort, we do notice very-distinct changes of tone from one section to the next. These suggest that, over the course of these thousands of years, some "compiling" and probably rewriting must have been done. We don't know when, or by who. (It might even have been a committee.)

Further complicating the issue are things like the Councils of Nicene, which were tasked with constructing a "canonical" Bible: the sixty-six books that we ... oops! the Catholic version is different ... and what to do with the leftovers. (Alas, a great many libraries were destroyed forever, just because they contained "heresy" according to someone with a match.)

We know that the King James scholars (and every group since them) has dealt with multiple "original" sources, some of these being translations e.g. in Greek, and we know that they are different from one another.

Like it or not ... "believe it" or not ... these are things that we know. "Deal with it." To answer the OP's original question, "we should presume that all of these books had many authors, and revisions, and (literally...) 'God only knows' what else," done to them before they wound up in our hands. We might live in "the information age," with SHA1 checksums and all-of-that, but our forefathers didn't. Therefore, if we attempt to hold these books up to the mythical standard of "TRVTH," well, I think that we're just being very unrealistic about it, in a way that is not wise. They are what they are, as they are.

And, even though it seems that I might be in the minority here (?), this doesn't bother me at all. Study the books for what they are, warts and all, and know that the books themselves are really beside-the-point. "The Ancient of Days" has no failure to communicate. God has used rocks, donkeys, the wind, and shrubbery. "Seek, and you will Find." If, as many believe, He intended to convey a message "down through the ages," in spite of the frailties of the spoken and of the written word (and of countless scribes and committees) ... well, "He did, didn't He?"

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 07-02-2013 at 10:06 AM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 02:31 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
A total non-sequitur. Ethics have nothing to do at all with a god. One can be an ethical person without ever believing in god, for example based on the simple "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" I personally rather find it rather scary how many believers only don't do the things they accuse atheists of wanting to do because of the fear of a supreme being, instead basing this on their own morality.
Sorry Tobi, you didn't address the issue. What is the ultimate authority behind "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" According to you, that was said by one piece of cosmic dust to another piece of cosmic dust, thus according to you don't have to obey it.

You tell me: what is the authority keeping you from murdering for instance? Why is murder wrong?

Quote:
Sorry, but reading this it seems to me that you neither know much about the science behind this (by the way, the christian god and evolution are not mutual exclusive, ask the pope), nor do you seem to know much about other religions, when you claim that the Christian religion is the only one that accounts for this (at least Judaism shares the same creation story with Christianity).
I don't care about what the pope says. He is an apostate and an heretic, who leads others astray with his false doctrine.

Since you know so much more about science than I do, you tell me. Where does the world as we know it come from? In short, I want to know what the ultimate source of the world and everything in it is.

Quote:
You realize that the authors of the gospels were well aware of those predictions and had no problem at all to adapt their stories to them?
Yes, maybe they did know. But this doesn't mean that they made it up. There were hundreds of witnesses at the time who saw Christ, and the miracles that he performed. Josephus, one of the most recognized historians of the era, recognized Christ, and his death on the cross. Just as prophesied.

All but one of these men died for what they wrote.....if they admitted that they lied, they would've have been saved, and even treated with great honor. However, they suffered cheerfully and willingly for what they wrote, never admitting that they lied, even when under torture. Once again, would you be willing to die for a lie that you said; even if you would be given pardon for confessing?

Quote:
But anyways, I can't see how any of this is related to the question about the number of authors of the book Isaiah.
Almost nothing in this thread has had anything to do with the original posters intent.

Last edited by Nbiser; 07-02-2013 at 06:16 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 03:13 PM   #95
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gods make haters i know or you really can't or won't understand that+ wow how about if i misspell more but say simple stuff like: heaven and hell are ONLY metaphors derr

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-02-2013 at 09:34 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 03:22 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Sorry Tobi, you didn't address the issue. What is the ultimate authority behind "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you!" According to you, that was said by one piece of cosmic dust to another piece of cosmic dust, thus according to you don't have to obey it.

You tell me: what is the authority keeping you from murdering for instance? Why is murder wrong?



I don't care about what the pope says. He is an apostate and an heretic, who leads others astray with his false doctrine.

Since you know so much more about science than I do, you tell me. Where does the world as we know it come from? In short, I want to know what the ultimate source of the world and everything in it is.



Yes, maybe they did know. But this doesn't mean that they made it up. There were hundreds of witnesses at the time who saw Christ, and the miracles that he performed. Josephus, one of the most recognized historians of the era, recognized Christ, and his death on the cross. Just as prophesied.

All but one of these men died for what they wrote.....if they admitted that they lied, they would've have been saved, and even treated with great honor. However, they suffered cheerfully and willingly for what they wrote, never admitting that they lied, even when under torture. Once again, would you be willing to die for a lie that you said; even if you would be given pardon for confessing?
All these questions are off-topic. If you would be so kind to ask them again in the religion mega-thread I will answer them there.

Quote:
Almost nothing in this thread has had anything to do with the original posters intent.
And that is why a moderator asked the members to go back on topic in this thread.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 03:47 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
All these questions are off-topic. If you would be so kind to ask them again in the religion mega-thread I will answer them there.

And that is why a moderator asked the members to go back on topic in this thread.
OK then, we can move this to the religion mega-thread. However, I searched for it and couldn't find it. What section is it?

Nbiser
 
Old 07-02-2013, 03:53 PM   #98
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About a book of "god" equals... Dose "he\it(more likly an alien)" exist?
 
Old 07-02-2013, 05:40 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
OK then, we can move this to the religion mega-thread. However, I searched for it and couldn't find it. What section is it?

Nbiser
Don't bother, I have asked and never get an answer. Not one of the "pro-science" (anti-religion) group has been able to answer any question like you asked yet. They demand proof on a topic that is based on faith yet cannot give proof on a topic that is based on empirical evidence.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 06:00 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
OK then, we can move this to the religion mega-thread. However, I searched for it and couldn't find it. What section is it?

Nbiser
Just click on the link in my previous post.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 06:15 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Just click on the link in my previous post.
Thanks! I didn't see that.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 08:22 PM   #102
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Pr∞f:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Don't bother, I have asked and never get an answer. Not one of the "pro-science" (anti-religion) group has been able to answer any question like you asked yet. They demand proof on a topic that is based on faith yet cannot give proof on a topic that is based on empirical evidence.
Some answers will never have proof so we create our own(.) We come from nothing and go back, Period! Infinitely debatable as "facts" change throughout infinite time. And, if u'll never get that blame "grammar"...

"They" demand ∞\*

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-02-2013 at 09:39 PM.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 11:10 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Some answers will never have proof so we create our own(.) We come from nothing and go back, Period! Infinitely debatable as "facts" change throughout infinite time. And, if u'll never get that blame "grammar"...

"They" demand ∞\*
The 1st highlighted section is exactly my point. Many things will never have proof so why the agro demanding proof of things that are based on faith? Furthermore why the narrow sightedness that science has the answers? A couple of years ago I asked a simple question in the other thread, which I will never again post in, of someone who was adamant that his point of view was the only point of view. I haven't seen that person in LQ this year and I still have not been answered.

Facts don't change but knowledge does, I wont blame grammar for that what I will question is how you come to your conclusion. I'll give you an example.
Fact the Earth is sphere (well it is an prolate sphere). Knowledge (poorly constructed) in various periods of history said it was flat, maps showed it was flat, organisations with vested interests said it was flat, uneducated people (do not blame the bible for this rather blame organisations with vested interests) did not question what they were told. The fact that the earth is a sphere has not in any way, shape (get the pun), or form, changed, but knowledge has.

How does the example relate to the OP?
Some people believe Isaiah was written by one person. What evidence do they have of this? They say the book itself + other things that come to mind during the discussion.
Others believe Isaiah was written by more than one person. What evidence do they have of this? They say the book itself + other things that come to mind during the discussion.
Who'se right? who'se wrong? does it really, really, really matter?
Some people will argue till they are blue in the face, they will not ever see the other side of the discussion yet expect the other side to see their argument. Until everybody enters these discussions with an open mind, I am yet to see evidence of this, these discussions are a back and forth that get no where.
 
Old 07-02-2013, 11:53 PM   #104
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Faith is a word\knowledge-only(circles) and depending on 'your' changing religions...
Science is by flesh(only) and will never have all the answers, most if not all is po$turing some times at wanting to understand or fix.
I simply rebel, except: love and death(although we try).(intertwined by hypocrisy and irony, for how ever long(?)edu)

"Facts don't change":
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
...read every science\religious book ever recorded to see...
Oops up till here i thought we were there and i could say any religiously debatable thing lol not that i wouldn't... So:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Singular authorship of Isaiah
Books use words by other people, all is eclectic if nothing else... (and we only learn words when taught just like blind faith and greed) There Thread Completion

"Who'se right? who'se wrong? does it really, really, really matter?" Sacrificing virgins and education that's wrong, that's why religions evolve.
Stopping before too many circles

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-03-2013 at 01:41 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2013, 12:38 AM   #105
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I don't get 95% of what you post at the best of times, that last post makes very little sense at all. Are you cross posting the same things on two threads? Confusing the discussion along the way by any chance?
 
  


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