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when there is no religion to give moral guidence, then the void is filled with something else.
Give me a break. Why do you insist on equating religion with morality, when they have very little to do with each other? Well, maybe they do. There's the Inquisition. Priests molesting little boys. Cardinals excommunicating kings who wouldn't serve the church. Churches full of gold relics that they've pressured a gullible public into giving them. Beheading. De-handing. Fatwahs of death. Tithes. Church ordered rapings. Yeah, all that is moral. I think I'll pass, thanks.
Actually, equating morality with religion isn't limited to Bashyow - it's very common for believers to believe that without their big book the whole world would turn into, well, Hell. The fact is that most of the more obvious rules from religion have already been put into secular law - no stealing, no murder, no rape, until relatively recently no adultery was in there too. However, like most atheists i have rejected the Bible and have not found myself murdering, raping, stealing and so on. There are 2 reasons for this: I don't want to and the law prevents me. If I were to change that position I would still be an atheist but I would also be a law breaker.
I challenge all believers to adhere to every rule in the Bible - including that freak show known as Leviticus (or the book of not clearing your plate at meal times). So, as well as the ten commandments and the one tacked on by Jesus, you must also follow this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviticus
Chapter 1
1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
11 And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
12 And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
14 And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
15 And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
16 And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
17 And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Chapter 2
1 And when any will offer a meat offering unto the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour; and he shall pour oil upon it, and put frankincense thereon:
2 And he shall bring it to Aaron's sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD:
3 And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.
4 And if thou bring an oblation of a meat offering baken in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil.
5 And if thy oblation be a meat offering baken in a pan, it shall be of fine flour unleavened, mingled with oil.
6 Thou shalt part it in pieces, and pour oil thereon: it is a meat offering.
7 And if thy oblation be a meat offering baken in the fryingpan, it shall be made of fine flour with oil.
8 And thou shalt bring the meat offering that is made of these things unto the LORD: and when it is presented unto the priest, he shall bring it unto the altar.
9 And the priest shall take from the meat offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
10 And that which is left of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.
11 No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the LORD, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the LORD made by fire.
12 As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savour.
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
14 And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.
15 And thou shalt put oil upon it, and lay frankincense thereon: it is a meat offering.
16 And the priest shall burn the memorial of it, part of the beaten corn thereof, and part of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Chapter 3
1 And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD.
2 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
3 And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
4 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away.
5 And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
6 And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.
7 If he offer a lamb for his offering, then shall he offer it before the LORD.
8 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle the blood thereof round about upon the altar.
9 And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat thereof, and the whole rump, it shall he take off hard by the backbone; and the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
10 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away.
11 And the priest shall burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the LORD.
12 And if his offering be a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD.
13 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of it, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle the blood thereof upon the altar round about.
14 And he shall offer thereof his offering, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
15 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away.
16 And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour: all the fat is the LORD'S.
17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
(and this bit is just about burnt offerings!)
I'm not copying the lot - there's 27 chapters like this. But, while you follow these rules, you must also follow the rules that directly contradict these rules. Have fun and let us know how you get on.
I'm almost done reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It's a good read for religious and the non-religious. I highly suggest anyone with an open mind and those that keep their skepticism hats on to read it. Perhaps some of you religious people can respect why us atheists reject your god just as you reject other religion's gods!
I'm almost done reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It's a good read for religious and the non-religious. I highly suggest anyone with an open mind and those that keep their skepticism hats on to read it. Perhaps some of you religious people can respect why us atheists reject your god just as you reject other religion's gods!
I am very pleased that someone other than myself has read this book. I myself read this book and mentioned/quoted from it when the other religion thread was active. Yes it is a very good read, and very well written.
I am very pleased that someone other than myself has read this book. I myself read this book and mentioned/quoted from it when the other religion thread was active. Yes it is a very good read, and very well written.
One good thing about a book published by this sort of authority is that it gives you a solid reference and a foundation of reasoning that you know is secure. It's easy to wave me off, as I'm nobody with very little education. However, when someone tosses a handwave at Dawkins, I know they have nothing to argue with.
when there is no religion to give moral guidence, then the void is filled with something else.
here in Britian that void has been filled with selfish consumerism, and no one cares about anyone else.
That is absolute nonsense. There are many societies in existence in the world (some many hundreds of years old, some perhaps a few thousand years old, but without written history who knows) whose supernatural beliefs do not form the basis of their morals or the organization of their society. For some societies, the extent of their supernatural beliefs is a handful of creation stories.
The problem with Britain (or Britian as you write it), as with much of the modern world, is not a loss of religion but a tolerance of antisocial behavior and what seems to be a fear to discipline people who are out of line. Ill-bred parents believe it is the responsibility of the state to form their children's behavior and refuse to discipline their own children. What good can you expect when parents will not take responsibility for the behavior of their own children. Religion has little to do with social behavior; some of the most vile figures from the past 4000 years of history were most devout to whatever religion they had.
when there is no religion to give moral guidence, then the void is filled with something else.
here in Britian that void has been filled with selfish consumerism, and no one cares about anyone else.
From my agnostic point of view, I kind of agree, but not totally, I see it more like a change of god than the lack of it, money is the new god and we seek happiness buying lots of things, big houses, big cars, big tv..., actually I think that actual crisis is not only economic but also existential, we find ourservels getting all that things, and we still arent happy..., or being unhappy cause we cannot get them...
I don't need god to tell me how to behave. In the 47 years since I became an atheist I haven't committed theft, rape, or murder. I'm not particularly materialistic: don't want a big house, flash car, or any status symbol.
One problem about religions and suffering of any kind is resignation: if something bad is happening it must be god's will and we must leave it to him to sort out. Put up with anything here on earth, you'll get a greater reward in heaven. There's only one short sensible answer to that attitude: bullshit!
However, when someone tosses a handwave at Dawkins, I know they have nothing to argue with.
Right! So Dawkins is this flashy scientist and that automatically makes him an authority on the human sciences too? Add up the curricula of the humanities and you'll have ten times longer to study than if you combined all the sciences. And yet here is this genius who somehow has figured it out just like that. Phew, I tip my hat to that. Danke schön, Herr Dawkins, for your brilliant survey of 2600 years of philosophy, 2000 years of theology, 200 years of psychology, 300 years of sociology, 2500 years of history, 2500 years of linguistics, over 200 years of mythology and anthropology, 4000 years of literature, many more years of art, etc. - and all prettily distilled within a few hundred pages.
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