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Old 10-22-2005, 12:29 PM   #1
danimalz
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Dangerous Religion


Muslims clash with police outside Egyptian church; 1 dead, 90 wounded

Friday, October 21, 2005; Posted: 10:01 p.m. EDT (02:01 GMT)

Demonstrators gather at a Coptic Christian church Friday to denounce a play deemed offensive to Islam.

ALEXANDRIA, Egypt (AP) -- One person died and more than 90 were injured as thousands of Muslims rioted outside a Coptic Christian church Friday to denounce a play deemed offensive to Islam. Police responded by beating protesters and firing tear gas into the crowd, officials said.


What is wrong with these people. Are any other main-stream religions so intolerant in this day and age? And why is this behavior so tolerated (encouraged) by the leaders of Islam.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 12:43 PM   #2
Ahmed
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First let me make clear as a muslim and an Egyptian that this has NOTHING to do with the religion itself. Let alone all the other BS that's happening worldwide in the name of Allah (or just God, as there's no difference except in the name). What you see is a clear-as-the-sun misusing of a religion that preaches peace and tolerance. If you don't believe me then I can show you what I mean.

I'll tell you what's wrong with these people. They aren't educated enough to know that there are other means of solving a conflict rather than violence. This isn't encouraged by true muslims or Islam. In fact muslim leaders should be ashamed of these people misbehaving and desecrating the name of Islam.

You don't blame guns for killing people. You blame the gun wielder.
You don't blame alcohol for killing people in accidents. You blame the one who drank too much.
You don't blame religion. You blame the hypocrites for causing crap in the name of religion.

I'd be happy to discuss this matter via E-mail or MSN if anyone's interested (tailofscorpion@hotmail.com). Peace

-A
 
Old 10-22-2005, 12:55 PM   #3
danimalz
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Very well put; I agree with you for the most part and hope i didn't offend you personally.

It seems that Islamic leadership needs to do a much better job. Rarely to we see broad condemnations of violent acts. Never do we see is put forth in Mosques or madrassas.

Many were offended by the movie "Passion of the Christ". Yet I do not recall much (or any) violence; and Mel Gibson doesn't have a "fatwa" of death over his head like there is for Salman Rushdie.

Please educate me: It has been widely reported that the Koran says that any non-believer is an infidel; should be put to death. Is this true?
 
Old 10-22-2005, 01:16 PM   #4
Ahmed
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No it's not true that infidels should be killed for no reason. In fact, the only justifiable reason is when that certain person starts a war with you. And it's also not true at all that all muslims should push non-muslims to convert to Islam. Sadly what happens sometimes contradicts this. The only explanation I could find about this extreme behaviour is the lack of correct religious and general education, tolerance, understanding and wisdom.

By the way, a verse from the Koran says about relations to non-believers:

"God does not forbid you to respect those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice" (Koran 60:8)

Other verses say as follows:

"You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones." (Koran 16:125)

"O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe God. God is fully Cognizant of everything you do. God promises those who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great recompense." (Koran 5:8-9)

Go figure

-A

*EDIT: I wasn't offended BTW, just a bit pissed off by what happened.

Last edited by Ahmed; 10-22-2005 at 01:17 PM.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 01:54 PM   #5
d00bid00b
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danimalz - the thrust is not in accusing the Q'oran and the system of belief around it of inciting violence as if by a plague. This is exactly like accusing Bush of military aggression because he is a fundamentalist Christian and subscribes to a literal interpretation of the Bible. While there may be elements of truth in either of these claims, the important distinction lies not in the holy scriptures as such, but rather in the manner by which people attempt to use the scriptures to support one or other types of political belief. The scriptures may provide the means to justify bombing an abortion clinic or a nation or a public bus (just like pretty much anything - look at the conditions of erotomania or any other delusional state) but are not in any way a substantive cause of those acts. The decision to act is largely taken before the manner by which those actions are to be justified. Now we are in the realm of politics and psychology, butnot theology!!

As a question of politics, rather than of theology, one makes a lot more headway in unravelling some of the conflicts and (hopefully) some of the solutions.

Last edited by d00bid00b; 10-22-2005 at 02:00 PM.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 01:55 PM   #6
bigjohn
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Well done Ahmed. Good answers my friend.

It seems that while other religions have their problems, the world media is just a little quick to focus on issues that affect the Islamic world right now.

It might be even better, if the worlds media would give greater exposure to main stream Islam. The muslims with which I've been aquainted, have all, too my knowledge, been pleasant, polite and eminently respectable people - excellent.

Unfortunately, good things and nice people, don't sell newspapers or advertising space. Hence, it corresponds that nearly everything "we" see in the news that has regard to Islam/muslims, is very likely to spotlight those who are termed by the media, "Islamist and/or Fundamentalist".

Both words, currently (at least in the eyes of the western media), have negative connotations.

regards

John

p.s. I suspect that this thread will end up getting closed anyway, because other, similar ones (especially ones that have such provocative titles) often end up as virtual flame war/"slanging matches".
 
Old 10-22-2005, 02:05 PM   #7
Ahmed
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Thanks bro

I'm happy this isn't developing into a flame war yet (One of the very few religious threads that don't)

Anyway you're right. The media usually tends to bastardize the image of certain groups of people. Something about the term Fundamentalist is bugging me: The real meaning of the word in this concept is Adherence to the fundaments of the religion. The fundaments of Islam are the Koran and the Sunna (Tradition of Mohammed: Everything he said, did, accepted or declared as correct). If you follow those 2 sources you'll be a true muslim, a true fundamentalist. Now WHY are those who misuse the Islam and DON'T follow the Koran and Sunna correctly called fundamentalists? It doesn't make much sense to me..

I'm still open for any discussions, and I suggest that we do it outside this forum as to maintain the non-flame-war status

Peace my friends

-A
 
Old 10-22-2005, 03:20 PM   #8
primo
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Re: Dangerous Religion

Quote:
Originally posted by danimalz
What is wrong with these people. Are any other main-stream religions so intolerant in this day and age? And why is this behavior so tolerated (encouraged) by the leaders of Islam.
You've been careful enough to outline this "in this day and age" thing because you know that ALL semitic religions (christianity, judaism and islam) have been abused and misused. But let me tell you that the same potential still exists and still to this age, christianity is the main cause of problems in N. Ireland and psychic oppression with these end-of-times fears. What we see sometimes is the fight of an entire way of life to survive, and these things are tough. Fighting it generates a contra-fight and in any way will contribute nor will give any time to self-criticism. In this sense, no religion is better than another.

The only religions I respect are both buddhism, hinduism and pan-american indian cosmovisions because they understand that every people experience analog states through different paths.

The west's criticism of Islam is nothing more than puritans shocked in the same way that our consumerism shock islamists, and they are no reasons to attack the other. But what we see is definitely not a war of worlds, it's a war for energetic resources. Let's not forget this

Last edited by primo; 10-22-2005 at 03:21 PM.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 03:30 PM   #9
Blinker_Fluid
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There are idiots in every religion and idiots without religion.

Reading the short article the questions I have are
What is the play?
Why are they doing the play?

The point I'm trying to make is maybe the idiots rioting aren't the only idiots in this story.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 06:09 PM   #10
DuckMan
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an idiot is an idiot, religion doesnt matter
 
Old 10-22-2005, 07:52 PM   #11
williamwbishop
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I think it odd that you would portray islam as dangerous, when it is merely another abrahamic tradition. Not to start a flame war, but you worship the same god. In my experience, neither side is particularly innocent.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 07:54 PM   #12
cs-cam
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blinker_Fluid
There are idiots in every religion and idiots without religion.

Reading the short article the questions I have are
What is the play?
Why are they doing the play?

The point I'm trying to make is maybe the idiots rioting aren't the only idiots in this story.
Ha! Someone who thinks like me!
 
Old 10-22-2005, 08:54 PM   #13
Dragineez
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Yes, Please...

Quote:
Originally posted by danimalz
Please educate me:
For my own edification, and probably many other readers of this forum, I would be most grateful if you could please explain Ahmed. My own confusion, and that of many Americans, stems from a genuine lack of understanding of, well.. I don't know.... to quote Joliet Jake Blues "Well, what did I say to piss you off this time - Baby!" The early 20th century in America apparently appreciated Arabic culture very much (Rudolph Valentino in The Sheik, the whole Art Deco thing built around Eygptian art and architecture, the 1001 tales, etc.). What has brought it to this state? You seem to be intelligent, articulate, and a remarkably good english speaker. I would deeply appreciate your thoughts on this topic. Please feel free to take your time, frame your thoughts, and say anything you want. I really want to know what you really think. I promise to not take offense. Thanking you in advance...

Last edited by Dragineez; 10-22-2005 at 08:55 PM.
 
Old 10-22-2005, 11:10 PM   #14
primo
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I took a course on "arabic culture" at the university. I learned the arabic phonemes just enough to write my name (from right to left, just as the hebrew language). I learned that Iran is not an arab country. Lebanon is an arab country which is mainly christian (I already knew this from a lebanese friend). It surprises me that the arab people I came to know all speak english, french and spanish very fluently, as well as (of course) their own language. I learned that Islam forbids the artistic portrayal of Mohammed, that their art has taken the path of scripture. I learned that, in the early times, poetry was a way to win wars. I learned too that Jesus is mentioned a number of times in the Quran (Corán, in spanish). Numerically, Islam is the most practiced religion. What I don't understand is why shiites fight sunnites, fellow muslims, but I equate this with christianity's history.

I visited the Mosque of Caracas. It's an impressive building with a library inside and with a (it surprised me) mini-football field inside. This mosque is near a synagogue and a strange church with an unusual construction. This mosque is decorated with a geometric pattern that resembles the star of David but with 8 points (2 squares).

I don't think this culture should "open" itself to dissection as it is clear that there can't be no link between murder and true religion. It has nothing to explain because confussion comes from confussionists. Misunderstanding is a personal choice: it's up to you to try to know what you fear, instead of the media's choice. Religions (and religious people, mainly priests) need to understand that every religion has been the (unconscious?) choice in every land on this planet.

What is non-sensical to me it's to think that beheadings and Guantánamo is less outrageous that another. The governments play with these shifts in public perception. In the context of these times, they never show an israeli tank with a palestinian boy used as human shield: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4314898.stm
If we believe that one kind of ungodly violence is better than another, then we're weird and we give "our" "governments" the go-ahead command.
 
Old 10-23-2005, 12:49 AM   #15
Ahmed
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First of all thanks Dragineez for your compliments I really appreciate that. Geez, I don't know where to start..

This whole Arab vs. The West issue has a major problem fueling most of the conflicts nowadays: Terrorism. Let me explain (not justify) what lies behind this problem:

Nowadays in the post 9/11 and Iraq War Era there are a few people here have developed a natural disliking (or may I say hate) towards anything that's "American". Israel and Jewish people are despised for some obvious reasons (which by NO means are justified). Some of the following examples might seem trivial, but they're not:

Example No. 1:
There's an "American University in Cairo" (AUC) that has been around for a really long time and has drawn thousands of students. I'm pretty sure it offers opportunities for some of its graduates to complete their post-graduate studies in America. Now there's a new "German University in Cairo" that is sponsored by and partnered with a couple of Universities in Germany. So many students apply at the GUC and the number of AUC applicants is going down. Slowly but significantly. Why? Because some of them say: "We don't like America, Europe is a much better bet"

Example No. 2:
My Dad's a Obstetrician and Gynaecologist. It used to happen a lot that a patient says to him that she's going to the USA for the birth, as for the kid to get the American nationality. Used to be a status symbol. (At the time I asked myself: What's so bad about being Egyptian..?) Nowadays this doesn't happen anymore. You can guess why..

Example No. 3 (Not so trivial):
February 1997: Hundreds of alleged "young Satanists" are arrested from their homes at midnight, from metal gigs or from "satanic orgies". The horrible truth was that most of them weren't satanists but just young people listening to heavy/death/black metal and the likes. The problem here lies not only in this, but in the supposed explanation of the authorities and the grown-up Egyptian society: This phenomenon is clearly an American and Israeli influence, targeted to destroy our youths' mind and morale. Should I laugh or cry, I have no idea..

Example No. 4: (quite serious)
2 Years ago there were some certain Islamic groups distributing flyers all over the place calling out for a boycott of all American and Israeli products. There was a list of everything "Made in USA" and the replacement goods. It was said that: "The money that goes to America is sent to Israel to kill Palestinians", "Each Dollar you put into American goods is a bullet put through a palestinian heart", etc etc etc.. YEAH RIGHT. Sure, these are Egyptian companies marketing American goods in Egypt that have to send license fees to the US companies, but the idea of every single cent from US export goods going to support the war against Palestinians in true Stalin-Hitler-style is stupid.


The standard conspiracy theory that's always brought up is that America and Israel are evil and want us all dead or want to conquer us with their anti-islamic imperialism. On the other hand I personally detest Bush and Ariel Sharon and I can't deny the war crimes they have committed (Yes, the war against Iraq was a crime.). Primo, you showed the example of Israel using human shields in the past. This is the type of footage we get every couple of days in the news: Israeli forces destroying homes, killing women and children, arresting civilians for no apparent reason, launching air raid attacks on palestinian settlements.. If you don't get this type of news it's not your fault. It's the media's fault for manipulating the news and peoples' opinions. The media on both sides is manipulating people in order to satisfy their own prejudices. It's almost like a 2nd cold war..

Both sides are making the same mistake, not trying to approach the other side and just get along with them. There are many exceptions for sure, but thanks to the bloody media there aren't more exceptions. And thanks to the bloody media the image of each side isn't improving in the eyes of the other. On this side, Jews are looked upon as the scum of the earth and Hitler is considered good because he exterminated them (That my friends belongs to the most pathetic things I've ever heard). On the other hand there's this typical "arab = terrorist" profile in the west which has gotten me the special treatment in German and British airports. It was a nuisance: Asked by police officers what my name is, where I'm from, what my Dad's job is, where I'm going, why I'm going there, who I'm staying at, what their job is, how long I'm staying, if I'm alone or with family, etc etc etc. I'm not against security, but I'm against getting that treatment because I was the only one with light brown skin and jet black hair around..

Another thing is that when I ask why people here hate America so much, whereas America is supporting Egypt financially, I get the same answer: "Because they hate us so much and consider us terrorists". I can also imagine that any person that has lost a relative in an attack by Muslim terrorists will hate Muslims for their terrorism violence. So basically each side hates the other side because the other side hates them. How to get out of this vicious circle, I have no idea..

Now, when you mix this hate with some far-fetched ideas, it gets dangerous. Ideas like "Jihad means killing people from the enemy's side and going to heaven for that". Ideas like "Kill all infidels" and the likes. As I said before, these ideas come from the severe manipulation and the lack of correct education in some areas here. The true meaning of Jihad is NOT "Holy War" or "the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims" as found on many sites on the internet.

Let me explain the true meaning of Jihad: The word itself means "Exerting effort" or "Striving". No warfare context at all. If you apply Jihad to warfare, which has been done in the times of Prophet Mohammed, it would mean defending your religion or home against any offensive attack from other people. Not going around murdering every Non-muslim you can find to take over their land. The context of "Effort" would be entirely physical in this case.
One day, after the Muslims came back from a major battle the Non-believers launched against them, Mohammed said to his friends: "We came back from the smaller Jihad to the larger Jihad". They asked him what he meant by larger Jihad and he said: "Jihad el nafs" (Jihad against oneself). He meant by that that they should try to control themselves to do good and avoid sins. In this context the meaning of "Effort" applies perfectly. The idea of going to heaven directly applies to dying in a battle to defend yourself, your home, your money, your family or your religion. Not commiting suicide and killing innocent people along with you. Murder is a major sin in Islam (the 10 commandments are listed in the Koran by the way) and suicide too. The term "Larger Jihad" also implies that there are much bigger priorities.

One more problem: If this post fell into the hands of a radical Islamist group and they knew how to find me, I'll probably get murdered very soon. Reasons? Dealing with the enemy and expressing heretic ideas. Whereas I don't see any heresy in what I'm saying, they won't be to happy anyway. They consider befriending the evil, evil Americans a formidable crime. I met this palestinian guy once who kept cursing Jewish people and I told him that he shouldn't generalize because there are loads of good Jewish people, for example the couple of Israeli friends I met on the internet. His shocked reaction: "How dare you make friends with them, let alone talk to them?! ALL ISRAELIS ARE BAD, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!". Go figure..

To bring this to an end: The arabs shouldn't solve conflicts by violence and try to be more maliable (sp?) and tolerant.. And the West shouldn't try to apply ideals and policies to other countries that don't match with their culture or heritage as Bush wanted to do with Iraq. You simply can't apply a democracy in a country where different ethnic groups will fight each other to death if you set them loose onto each other (Sunnites and Shiites). It's just wrong.

There's much more that I could say, but I'll leave it to that at the moment.. Got exhausted from all that typing and thinking anyway . Feel free to ask about anything..

I'm off to install Debian now Cheers!

-A
 
  


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