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Old 08-21-2012, 04:39 AM   #1
eloi
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Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

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slackware and systemd (OT)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
I do not understand your Logic at all.
Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.
 
Old 08-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #2
T3slider
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Registered: Jul 2007
Distribution: Slackware64-14.1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.
You shouldn't eat fish because of the trees. What? You don't understand my logic?

Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

There is no need to patronise. Just granting yourself a sense of supreme knowledge and entitlement does not all of a sudden make your argument logical.
 
5 members found this post helpful.
Old 08-21-2012, 03:00 PM   #3
Mercury305
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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Rockville, MD
Distribution: CrunchBang / Ubuntu
Posts: 540

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.
Lay off the |
drugs are bad.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 07:22 AM   #4
eloi
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Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by T3slider View Post
You shouldn't eat fish because of the trees. What? You don't understand my logic?

Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

There is no need to patronise. Just granting yourself a sense of supreme knowledge and entitlement does not all of a sudden make your argument logical.

When kikinovak told me about GPS, motorcycles and milk I could
answer him "What relation have motorcycles and milk with
systemd?" But, without consuming drugs and not having any
supreme knowledge, I am able to understand an analogy.

Besides rational, you need abstraction and association
capabilities. And what is more important, maturity. All that
will not grant you a supreme knowledge but at least you will not
chatter away like Mercury305 does (hey, he is a clever guy and he
is not bad intentioned; just a bit annoying and naive).

There are two points I agree with Stallman. 1) He consider the
social-human aspect of the issue more relevant than the
technical one. 2) He assumes you will be disposed to renounce
to some privileges to stay coherent with your cause.

Saying it simple: I find that who really miss the point are
those that blame GPL just because they are not able to run some
software on linux. More specially when the software
is a stupid toy.

I used the hyperbole "people suffering starvation" (in part to
follow the kikinovak "food" analogy) like an example of the most
important human resource in the aim of extending the
"priorities" to the whole human-social context (what you
expect of somebody talking about ethical behind of individuals
rights). Your lecture should be "You are complaining about
something that is not relevant to (and coherent with) the
context of the ideas of who (Stallman) you criticize".

Taking in care you felt entitled to discredit my logic even
without having read what I wrote (and without explaining why you
think that, what could be considered a plain insult) I will not
advice you to save it to a CD; the second time you will do the
same. That's what humble people like you use to do: "If I don't
understand (at a first sight) is because it has no logic".

But you don't offend me at all; I guess the average audience
here is too much younger than me; that's why some of you doesn't
understand my approach. Besides patronizing, what option I had
in front of some kind of comments?

For example, you said : "the idea that users have any real power
is such an idealistic and unrealistic view of the world".
Whithout the aim of insulting, your point of view can be
anything but mature.

When I talked about users I meant "the masses" not the
individual. You, me and even Volkering or Linus have no power
at all in front of "supply and demand". If most people likes
red apples (yes, about food again) and only you like green ones
take for sure the green apples will almost disappear from
stores. That's real world. For example, you will see RedHat
doing the same that Microsoft in some ways, because both
companies are evil? No, to survive in the market they are
subordinated to "supply and demand". Why Microsoft would think
about selling green apples? The farther your projects are from
what "most people do" the harder will be for you to acomplish
them, and like a side effect, the more the privileges you will be
forced to renounce to keep coherent with your cause.

Again read carefully what I've written and (while you don't feel
yourself "the owner of True") if you don't understand, at least
give me the benefit of the doubt.

Now, about systemd (I will over explain for those with low
association capabilities). Do you think that those that
complain about systemd are because some tech feature? Is it
about if systemd is a good or bad piece of software or if it get
the job done? Absolutely not. Some users have other concerns
at time to administer a Linux system than installing software
with Debian Synaptic. For example, you can learn to manage a
server with Mandriva Control Center, but what will you do in
front of a RedHat, Debian or Slackware machine, installing
Mandrake Wizards? :-) In a web server; do you think you need
cPanel? Do you think you need phpMyAdmin? Anyway you will be
forced to use them just because it is "what most people want".
I tried hardly to use Slackware like web server on a VPS (I
explained about it in other post in this forum). After a year
of having pointless discussions with more than twenty companies
around the world I had to end using CentOS (in a reseller).
Supply and demand. Now each time I want to make a modification,
like updating my custom CA (certificate authority) I must to
explain the supposed "Linux Techs" how to edit apache config
files because they just know how to do it using cPanel. Those
people have no concerns about systemd because they ignore (and
have no interest on) how to edit a config file or a shell
script.

Other example, I had ftp access to an important university site
(because a client of mine has a web page there). Just after
taking a look (a Solaris OS) I see two backups of the shadow
file with world readable permissions. I downloaded it to my
machine and after seconds john the ripper cracked more than 30
passwords (most of them "cocacola"). With some of them I get
ssh access. That's the kind of *supposed* Unix admins that think
that administering Unix from guied wizards is the modern approach.

Finally, I am a very, very rare person, in the sense I will
accept a good argument even if it goes against my personal
(immediate) interests. On the contrary, most people will
ignore, attack or even kill you (this is not an hyperbole) just
to defend a stupid vicious habit. The today's widespread drugs
dependency behavior.

Hey, I will no paraphrase again. Be equally exigent with your
thinking than you are with the others.

Last edited by eloi; 08-22-2012 at 12:49 PM.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 08:08 AM   #5
GazL
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Registered: May 2008
Posts: 3,330

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There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?
 
4 members found this post helpful.
Old 08-22-2012, 08:22 AM   #6
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 6,930
Blog Entries: 51

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?

@eloi
A bit of constructive criticism: could you use the same formatting as the rest of us? I keep trying to read your posts as if they were poetry, blank verse. TIA
 
Old 08-22-2012, 08:26 AM   #7
hitest
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Prince Rupert, B.C., Canada
Distribution: Slackware, OpenBSD
Posts: 4,141

Rep: Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?
+1

Haha
 
Old 08-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #8
eloi
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post

@eloi
A bit of constructive criticism: could you use the same formatting as the rest of us? I keep trying to read your posts as if they were poetry, blank verse. TIA
Tell me how you dress too so I buy the same clodes to make you happy.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 09:56 AM   #9
eloi
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?
Is this the "format" brianl propose me to imitate? Insulting?
I'd like to see you doing that in front of me.

Last edited by eloi; 08-22-2012 at 11:05 AM.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #10
Mercury305
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Rockville, MD
Distribution: CrunchBang / Ubuntu
Posts: 540

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
When kikinovak told me about GPS, motorcycles and milk I could
answer him "What relation have motorcycles and milk with
systemd?" But, without consuming drugs and not having any
supreme knowledge, I am able to understand an analogy.

Besides rational, you need abstraction and association
capabilities. And what is more important, maturity. All that
will not grant you a supreme knowledge but at least you will not
chatter away like Mercury305 does (hey, he is a clever guy and he
is not bad intentioned; just a bit annoying and naive).

There are two points I agree with Stallman. 1) He consider the
social-human aspect of the issue more relevant than the
technical one. 2) He assumes you will be disposed to renounce
to some privileges to stay coherent with your cause.

Saying it simple: I find that who really miss the point are
those that blame GPL just because they are not able to run some
software on linux. More specially when the software
is a stupid toy.

I used the hyperbole "people suffering starvation" (in part to
follow the kikinovak "food" analogy) like an example of the most
important human resource in the aim of extending the
"priorities" to the whole social human-social context (what you
expect of somebody talking about ethical behind of individuals
rights). Your lecture should be "You are complaining about
something that is not relevant to (and coherent with) the
context of the ideas of who (Stallman) you criticize".

Taking in care you felt entitled to discredit my logic even
without having read what I wrote (and without explaining why you
think that, what could be considered a plain insult) I will not
advice you to save it to a CD; the second time you will do the
same. That's what humble people like you use to do: "If I don't
understand (at a first sight) is because it has no logic".

But you don't offend me at all; I guess the average age of the
audience here is too much younger than mine; that's why some of
you doesn't understand my approach. Besides patronizing, what
option I had in front of some kind of comments?

For example, you said : "the idea that users have any real power
is such an idealistic and unrealistic view of the world".
Whithout the aim of insulting, your point of view can be
anything but mature.

When I talked about users I meant "the masses" not the
individual. You, me and even Volkering or Linus have no power
at all in front of "supply and demand". If most people likes
red apples (yes, about food again) and only you like green ones
take for sure the green apples will almost disappear from
stores. That's real world. For example, you will see RedHat
doing the same that Microsoft in some ways, because both
companies are evil? No, to survive in the market they are
subordinated to "supply and demand". Why Microsoft would think
about selling green apples? The farther your projects are from
what "most people do" the harder you will have, and like a side
effect, the most privileges you will be forced to renounce to
keep coherent with your cause.

Again read carefully what I've written and (while you don't feel
"the owner of True") if you don't understand, at least give me
the benefit of the doubt.

Now, about systemd (I will over explain for those with low
association capabilities). Do you think that those that
complain about systemd are because some tech feature? Is it
about if systemd is a good or bad piece of software or if it get
the job done? Absolutely not. Some users have other concerns
at time to administer a Linux system than installing software
with Debian Synaptic. For example, you can learn to manage a
server with Mandriva Control Center, but what will you do in
front of a RedHat, Debian or Slackware machine, installing
Mandrake Wizards? :-) In a web server; do you think you need
cPanel? Do you think you need phpMyAdmin? Anyway you will be
forced to use them just because it is "what most people want".
I tried hardly to use Slackware like web server on a VPS (I
explained about it in other post in this forum). After a year
of having pointless discussions with more than twenty companies
around the world I had to fall in using CentOS (in a reseller).
Supply and demand. Now each time I want to make a modification,
like updating my custom CA (certificate authority) I must to
explain the supposed "Linux Techs" how to edit apache config
files because the just know how to do it using cPanel. Those
people have no concerns about systemd because the ignore (and
have no interest on) how to edit a config file or a shell
script.

Other example, I had ftp access to an important university site
(because a client of mine has a web page there). Just after
taking a look (a Solaris OS) I see two backups of the shadow
file with world readable permissions. I downloaded it to my
machine and after seconds john the ripper cracked more than 30
passwords (most of them "cocacola"). With some of them I get
ssh access. That's the kind of *supposed* Unix admins that think
that administering Unix from guied wizards is the modern approach.

Finally, I am a very, very rare person, in the sense I will
accept a good argument even if it goes against my personal
(immediate) interests. On the contrary, most people will
ignore, attack or even kill you (this is not an hyperbole) just
to defend a stupid vicious habit. The today's widespread drugs
dependency behavior.

Hey, I will no paraphrase again. Be equally exigent with your
thinking than you are with the others.
After tryng to decipher your text. I realize some things you are trying to say but you are very off point. Why? Because you view the world from a distorted angle. Hence your offers and suggestions are as distorted as your English.
First of all Slackware is not about serving the Users. Slackware is about being Slackware. If it served the masses then it would be just like any distro. There are things that I don't like in Slackware but there are things that I don't like in lets say Ubuntu.
Now when you compare the stuff I don't like in Ubuntu and Slackware. I prefer Slackware even though Ubuntu caters to the masses.
Slackware serves a specific geeky type of users. Users that don't enjoy GUI automation, and like to dig the underlying cause of how things really work.
Just by going with the Masses does not make your distro a good distro. Even if it sells does that make it better? No.
My honest opinion? The masses are stupid. The masses watch Football games all day. Believe in most things they see on TV or now adays its Youtube. Which is why there are so many Ron Paul supporters now a days thinking he will save USA. Not realizing that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So I myself do not fall into the category of Masses in anything. For example 1 I hate watching sports. 2 I hate "group thinking" and backwards traditions. I am a pragmatist. I don't go for whatever is most popular is the best. I go for what works... Hence, I am not attracted by the OS that the masses use. I only like what I like. I like a lot about Slackware which is why I use it. But I also agree with the rest of the people in here that Patrick should continue making the final decisions. Why? Because I like his style. Even if I don't agree with everything with him. I still like the end product more then Ubuntu. Even if its a pain to download and install software on Slackware over Ubuntu. I still prefer the System so much more because I feel I can control it easier... yes, even with my limited knowledge on Linux. Slackware is great the way Patrick makes it. All I can do is give him recommendations and he can choose what he wants to add into it or not. I like that. Slackware is IMMUNE to that whole Supply and Demand theory you have spit out.
Why? Because Slackware is not about the Money. If it was Patrick would be working at Red Hat right now most likely. But Patrick is doing what he wants to do in his distro and that my friend is Priceless. Slackware is thus a REAL DISTRO. Unlike the User Catered Distros out there. Its like a work of art. Slackware doesn't give a damn what "Users" want. It does what it finds is Right and what works best with Slackware Philosophy.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 10:10 AM   #11
eloi
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
After tryng to decipher your text. I realize some things you are trying to say but you are very off point. Why? Because you view the world from a distorted angle. Hence your offers and suggestions are as distorted as your English.
First of all Slackware is not about serving the Users. Slackware is about being Slackware. If it served the masses then it would be just like any distro. There are things that I don't like in Slackware but there are things that I don't like in lets say Ubuntu.
Now when you compare the stuff I don't like in Ubuntu and Slackware. I prefer Slackware even though Ubuntu caters to the masses.
Slackware serves a specific geeky type of users. Users that don't enjoy GUI automation, and like to dig the underlying cause of how things really work.
Just by going with the Masses does not make your distro a good distro. Even if it sells does that make it better? No.
My honest opinion? The masses are stupid. The masses watch Football games all day. Believe in most things they see on TV or now adays its Youtube. Which is why there are so many Ron Paul supporters now a days thinking he will save USA. Not realizing that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So I myself do not fall into the category of Masses in anything. For example 1 I hate watching sports. 2 I hate "group thinking" and backwards traditions. I am a pragmatist. I don't go for whatever is most popular is the best. I go for what works... Hence, I am not attracted by the OS that the masses use. I only like what I like. I like a lot about Slackware which is why I use it. But I also agree with the rest of the people in here that Patrick should continue making the final decisions. Why? Because I like his style. Even if I don't agree with everything with him. I still like the end product more then Ubuntu. Even if its a pain to download and install software on Slackware over Ubuntu. I still prefer the System so much more because I feel I can control it easier... yes, even with my limited knowledge on Linux. Slackware is great the way Patrick makes it. All I can do is give him recommendations and he can choose what he wants to add into it or not. I like that. Slackware is IMMUNE to that whole Supply and Demand theory you have spit out.
Why? Because Slackware is not about the Money. If it was Patrick would be working at Red Hat right now most likely. But Patrick is doing what he wants to do in his distro and that my friend is Priceless. Slackware is thus a REAL DISTRO. Unlike the User Catered Distros out there. Its like a work of art. Slackware doesn't give a damn what "Users" want. It does what it finds is Right and what works best with Slackware Philosophy.
I used the same "distorted" english (it's not my mother tongue) to
write the post you qualified like "excellent and clever".

Let's people here to enjoy your correct english and Slackware
users to enjoy its immunity.

Excuse me, I have Morlocks and starved childs to feed.

Last edited by eloi; 08-22-2012 at 10:34 AM.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 11:16 AM   #12
hitest
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Prince Rupert, B.C., Canada
Distribution: Slackware, OpenBSD
Posts: 4,141

Rep: Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523Reputation: 523
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
kernel-P4N1C, don't insult. Just mock like above. :-)
Gazl's comment was funny without directly naming or insulting you.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 08-22-2012, 11:23 AM   #13
eloi
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharishankar View Post
A lot of your suggestions are impractical for
people who have day jobs and don't have oodles of time to tinker with their
computer.
Use the time you are wasting here.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 11:31 AM   #14
eloi
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 195

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
To get back on topic. I am happy with what ever software choices that Mr. Volkerding makes for future Slackware releases. I trust his judgement. He will make the final call on systemd.
For new people. Above other example of what is the "formatting"
to use here. This kind of useful comments are all well received.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 11:34 AM   #15
GazL
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
Gazl's comment was funny without directly naming or insulting you.
Yes it was intended as a light-hearted quip made for comedy value and the Time Machine reference in his/her chosen username, I certainly wasn't expecting the implied threat of violence I got in response.

As Alien Bob so succinctly put it earlier: *plonk*
 
4 members found this post helpful.
  


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