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Old 07-12-2012, 08:47 AM   #1
kikinovak
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systemd and Slackware's future


Hi,

Been reading a bit about systemd and other, erm, innovations that seem to stick to the french saying "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien" (meaning something like "Better things are enemies to good things").

As far as I understand, libraries and applications will have a progressive tendency to depend on systemd (which seems very odd to me, odd being a polite manner of saying "downright stupid").

Now I wonder how Slackware will handle this problem which will arise sooner or later. I admit I'm downright comfortable with Slackware's human-readable shell scripts for startup, and after looking into systemd, I instantly hated it with a passion.

What does your crystal ball say?
 
Old 07-12-2012, 08:49 AM   #2
zordrak
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That Slackware will dump anything that needs dumping no matter how many people cry about it. Just like the most wondrous moment when GNOME got dumped. Also regardless of how much may depend on it PAM is not in Slackware. Neither will systemd be. Anything that cannot function without systemd will not be included in Slackware and if you want it you will probably get the opportunity to build whatever it is along with systemd from SlackBuilds.Org.

 
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:15 AM   #3
Alien Bob
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Some things will probably be forced upon Slackware - PAM has been on the "carefully circumventing but you never know" list for a long time. PAM is not bad to have at all, but it is personal opinion of the Slackware boss which keeps it at bay. That is an architectural decision which we can live with as a team and as Slackware users.
But systemd is essentially evil. It is invasive, extremely hostile to other environments, threatening to kill non-Linux ecosystems which have hal, udev, dbus, consolekit, polkit, udisks, upower and friends as dependencies. And every iteration of the software written by the Redhat employees who are responsible for hal, udev, consiolekit, polkit and now systemd are incompatible with previous releases, re-implementing their bad ideas with new bad ideas... basically proving that these Redhat employees must be declared unfit to work on the core of a Linux distro.

However, the influence of their employer is so big that these products are forced upon the wider UNIX community and at some point it will be "assimilate or die". I hope we (Slackware) will find a way where we do not have to assimilate but still manage to keep the distro working. I have high hopes for KDE which has no Redhat ties and so far, manages to stay clear of this mess, sticking to widely accepted standards.

An example of impending doom: udev sources for recent releases are no longer in existence. They are now part of systemd source tarballs. And udisks? That has been deprecated in favour of the new "udisks2". Read http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/...loss-for-linux and weep.

Eric
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:16 AM   #4
H_TeXMeX_H
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I think that systemd is only a problem that appears along with GNOME. As Slackware has never included GNOME, I think it is safe for now. The increasing number of applications that require it are likely GNOME-only apps, which I have seen many of, and avoid instantly. If you don't know why I avoid them, try to install one, the dependencies are endless and hard to build in order and if you forget to compile something into one of the dependencies you have to go back and do it again.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:28 AM   #5
TobiSGD
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Would be nice if that problem would apply to Gnome only, but sadly that is not the case. The systemd developers want their system to be the standard init system on any Linux distribution (and if you read their blogs it is clear that they think it is evil and damaging to Linux if you don't want the same). The problem is that Red Hat (which is mainly used for servers) will adopt the system, openSuse (with KDE as default desktop), Fedora and others have it already and many more want to integrate it into their systems (Ubuntu being the exception with their Upstart system). When the bigger distributions all are using systemd it will unarguably be the case that much software will be developed with systemd in mind, which would be fatal to distributions not using systemd.

In short: systemd is massively invasive even for non-gnome distributions and their developers intend it to be this way, because they think they have the holy grail and every one else has to use it. Not using it is evil.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:56 AM   #6
jhw
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I've just read an interview with Lennart Poettering. How can it be that when few people decide something is not relevant anymore in their opinion (and I would count Slackware to be in that circle), that they just go ahead and push out something to the world that basically undermines just their point of view, changing pretty much everything how Linux and UNIX used to work?

I also see a huge danger in systemd. Not only for Slackware, but for every UNIX-like distribution out there.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:21 AM   #7
H_TeXMeX_H
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Well, because that's how power works. If you are in a position of power, you can change the world. If you are not, then you will be forced to change. It is best to resist as much as possible. I'm sure some distros will not buy it and the other tools will still be developed.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:38 AM   #8
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
Hi,

Been reading a bit about systemd and other, erm, innovations that seem to stick to the french saying "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien" (meaning something like "Better things are enemies to good things").

As far as I understand, libraries and applications will have a progressive tendency to depend on systemd (which seems very odd to me, odd being a polite manner of saying "downright stupid").

Now I wonder how Slackware will handle this problem which will arise sooner or later. I admit I'm downright comfortable with Slackware's human-readable shell scripts for startup, and after looking into systemd, I instantly hated it with a passion.

What does your crystal ball say?
Excellent observation.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:45 AM   #9
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Some things will probably be forced upon Slackware - PAM has been on the "carefully circumventing but you never know" list for a long time. PAM is not bad to have at all, but it is personal opinion of the Slackware boss which keeps it at bay. That is an architectural decision which we can live with as a team and as Slackware users.
But systemd is essentially evil. It is invasive, extremely hostile to other environments, threatening to kill non-Linux ecosystems which have hal, udev, dbus, consolekit, polkit, udisks, upower and friends as dependencies. And every iteration of the software written by the Redhat employees who are responsible for hal, udev, consiolekit, polkit and now systemd are incompatible with previous releases, re-implementing their bad ideas with new bad ideas... basically proving that these Redhat employees must be declared unfit to work on the core of a Linux distro.

However, the influence of their employer is so big that these products are forced upon the wider UNIX community and at some point it will be "assimilate or die". I hope we (Slackware) will find a way where we do not have to assimilate but still manage to keep the distro working. I have high hopes for KDE which has no Redhat ties and so far, manages to stay clear of this mess, sticking to widely accepted standards.

An example of impending doom: udev sources for recent releases are no longer in existence. They are now part of systemd source tarballs. And udisks? That has been deprecated in favour of the new "udisks2". Read http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/...loss-for-linux and weep.

Eric
Man, its like the movie 2001 Space Oddesy is coming to reality. Stanley Kubrick knew exactly what he was talking about. A machine that doesnt need humans to control itself... Matrix here we come Stuff like vmware/virtualbox etc. seem like a good thing but behind it all it is taking away lots of admin jobs. Being an admin is less becoming desirable. Life is getting hard for the IT world... I see it. So how will we survive all this? I am very pessimistic of the future... right now I love computers. But if computers are going to take away user control... I am going to have to hate computers.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:54 AM   #10
Mercury305
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Maybe its more control to just be a hacker instead of an admin or developer working for the system? Hacking into these automatic "less control requiring entities" may be the future for humanities survival. I mean Computers are meant to be a Tool for Humans... But lately i am seeing Computers replacing humans. Its turning into this Elite Control Grid. Instead of making humans lives easier it seems to simply make a few elite wealthy business owners lives easier instead.

Although I can't stop technology advancing... I am worried when machines take over. When AI kicks in full force, nobody will need an "administrator" again. Admins will be obsolete, along with programmers.

I guess this Capatilist system in its core will need to change. Because then all this AI stuff will only be used against us.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:54 AM   #11
ruario
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@Mercury305 I don't understand how you relate all of this to vmware/virtualbox?
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:57 AM   #12
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by ruario View Post
@Mercury305 I don't understand how you relate all of this to vmware/virtualbox?
For example before there used to be more admins required for all the servers. Now 1 admin is required for many servers using vmware/virtualbox. Hence, less admins required for hire.

But you are right Vmware and Virtualbox is not a bad thing. It still requires users to control at least. It is not automated.

Last edited by Mercury305; 07-12-2012 at 11:58 AM.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 12:01 PM   #13
ruario
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Personally I don't technology should be held back just to save jobs. But none of this relates to the original post.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:10 PM   #14
H_TeXMeX_H
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What worries me most about Slackware's future is not systemd, it is secure boot. Today, when someone tells you about "security" ask them which side of the prison bars you are on and who has the keys. You'd be surprised at the answer.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 07-12-2012 at 12:14 PM.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:20 PM   #15
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by ruario View Post
@Mercury305 I don't understand how you relate all of this to vmware/virtualbox?
I guess I am just thinking too far ahead. I guess all of this "system automation" is leading to a greater evil purpose. Its taking away the "thinking" aspect from humans... making us dumber and easily controlled. That is what worries me. Not Vmware/Virtualbox which as you said has nothing to do with it. But systemd is an example of where I am trying to get at.

When you become dependent on something... You lose your power to whatever you are dependent on. Computers used to be tools... Now it is more like its own entity dictating on to us what to do instead of us using it like a tool that it was designed to be.

Last edited by Mercury305; 07-12-2012 at 12:25 PM.
 
  


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