The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Also you need to specify about which universe you speak about because many stuff has been created in virtual reality, imagination so on and there they do exist.

I think the point here is that to the materialist, apparently the age-old issue of whether things like the imagination, virtual reality, etc. actually "exist" as "separate realities" is irrelevant. The ONLY "reality" which exists is this one; the one which we can experience with our five senses.

I would tend to agree that that's jumping to conclusions…what if we eventually develop VR technology so immersive as to make the "virtual" world and the "real" world indistinguishable, save for the fact that certain things are possible in the "virtual" world that aren't in the "real" world? Is the "virtual" world still not "real"? …depends on how you define "real".

Anyways, I think I'm done for now…my above post already has my main point in it, and I don't want to end up posting any more flame bait.

(…comes back 10 min. later )

Originally Posted by MrCode Yes, truths like the fact that free will is an illusion (look it up), and that all acts are inherently meaningless…oh, but that's right, you're supposed to "make meaning for yourself"! Why bother…it's already determined what "meaning" you will find in this life, if any. Yes, I know, I just went from mildly happy to completely depressed…something just came up here that put me in a sh*tty mood. Call me a troll if you like…it's all just a part of the mere chain of causality anyway…nothing more…anything "more" is an illusion to be avoided at all costs (even personal "happiness"), or so it would seem. This is what irritates me about this whole attitude of "stamp out anything even remotely related to religion/faith/anything non-materialistic": it seems like nobody takes into account the implications of such an objective. The only "logical" conclusion one can really come to when they take everything into account is moral nihilism; we're all just blobs of biological material (or more accurately, just "material", because "biological" is an abstraction) with about as much "freedom" as a wristwatch or a computer, and whose only real "purpose" (if such a term even has meaning) is to eat and fsck. Period. I might just quit LQ for a while…

I would rather meet a truth head on than hide my head in the sand because reality might be depressing. To argue that we have to lie to all of humanity and pretend there is a god for fear that they will otherwise stop acting morally or fall into a nihilistic depression is ludicrous. The least religious nations on earth are also reportedly the happiest.

And you're absolutely wrong, moral nihilism is not the only "logical" conclusion you can come to. Just because you can't envision another way, don't drag the rest of us down with you. I find nothing depressing at all in being only made of matter.

Maybe I'm not done…

To argue that we have to lie to all of humanity and pretend there is a god for fear that they will otherwise stop acting morally or fall into a nihilistic depression is ludicrous.

I never said I was religious. I've edited my post; see the disclaimer.

All I'm saying is that there seems to me to be little point to life when all is determined solely by the laws of physics; hopes, desires and intentions are illusions/abstractions, "control" is an illusion, etc.

I'd seriously like to hear your justification for "free will". Either that, or how one can possibly consider themselves morally responsible for their acts when they have been predetermined since the beginning of the universe; all their thoughts, emotions, words, etc. from birth 'till death. That's what I mean when I say that nihilism is the only "logical" conclusion (<- in quotes for a reason; I'd like to think there's another way, but I can't see it).

I hate being tempted by this thread…but it's apparently the path the universe hath set for me…

Originally Posted by MrCode Yes, truths like the fact that free will is an illusion (look it up), and that all acts are inherently meaningless

You'll have to prove that.

Originally Posted by MrCode The only "logical" conclusion one can really come to when they take everything into account is moral nihilism; we're all just blobs of biological material (or more accurately, just "material", because "biological" is an abstraction) with about as much "freedom" as a wristwatch or a computer, and whose only real "purpose" (if such a term even has meaning) is to eat and fsck. Period.

How about butterfly effect?

Originally Posted by MrCode {...}The ONLY "reality" which exists is this one; the one which we can experience with our five senses.{...}

This idea does not explain specific dreams outside normal dreams. For example lucid dreams, realistic dreams, problem-solving dreams, predicting dreams, incredible stuff you normally don't know when awake dreams. I don't remember details but i remember i have had some from all of it - ones i have complete control over what is going on, ones that gives you so much sense of reality that before you wake up you could just sworn it was real, some ideas realized and problems solved, i have even fighted in martial arts in dream like pro even i don't practice any in this life. Deja Vu dreams are weak spot because i never seem to remember them until that moment comes where you feel "this already happened before".

@Arcane

I never said I agreed with that position, I was just giving my interpretation of it. My position on the whole "reality vs. non-reality" issue is fuzzy, to say the least, but IMO if a given "reality" is indistinguishable from another, it becomes difficult to say that they're not the same thing, at least subjectively. In other words, my opinion leans towards the opposite of what you've quoted from my post.

In any case, that doesn't solve the "free will" problem, or anything else related to it. It's a completely separate issue.

Originally Posted by MrCode Maybe I'm not done… I never said I was religious. I've edited my post; see the disclaimer. All I'm saying is that there seems to me to be little point to life when all is determined solely by the laws of physics; hopes, desires and intentions are illusions/abstractions, "control" is an illusion, etc. I'd seriously like to hear your justification for "free will". Either that, or how one can possibly consider themselves morally responsible for their acts when they have been predetermined since the beginning of the universe; all their thoughts, emotions, words, etc. from birth 'till death. That's what I mean when I say that nihilism is the only "logical" conclusion (<- in quotes for a reason; I'd like to think there's another way, but I can't see it). I hate being tempted by this thread…but it's apparently the path the universe hath set for me…

I wonder where your opinion comes from that the laws of physics cause a deterministic universe and are contradicting a free will. Where did you get that from?

I wonder where your opinion comes from that the laws of physics cause a deterministic universe and are contradicting a free will.

I suppose this is the part where I say that a non-deterministic universe doesn't grant "free will", either. In a non-deterministic universe, where everything is left up to random chance (i.e. no method to the madness at all; no continuous string of causality), if any kind of intelligent agent (let alone a human) could exist in such a universe, all of its acts are out of its control, because they are random, without prior cause. In a deterministic universe, the agent's acts are determined by the laws of that universe, along with prior causes, and are thus also out of its "control". "Control" is thus effectively rendered an illusion/abstraction. Think about it: when was the last time you didn't act on your desires (or any other prior cause)? The only reason we think we have "control" over our lives is because we delude ourselves into believing that we are the sole initiator of our thoughts/actions, which is not the case at all; they have been laid out since the beginning by prior causes. If you trace back far enough, you'll eventually hit the beginning of the universe (Big Bang).

This is how I see it…if you must know where I got it: it started with me thinking on the topic (hell, I don't even remember how it all started), then I went around to various places about the topic via Wikipedia and Google, then started a couple of threads here. The only thing that I got out of those threads (and the treks through WP/Google search results) was "everything is predetermined, there's nothing you can do about it; everything is meaningless". I joined the xkcd fora as well, and that viewpoint seemed pretty prevalent there, so I thought that there had to be something to it…I dunno. You could say I've been "religiously indoctrinated", but instead of stories about "God" and what have you, it's been stories about "thou shalt follow the only path the universe hath set for thee". Everything I've read/seen on the topic since has seemed to confirm my ideas…although I suppose you're gonna say that I've just been blindly following a certain philosophy…

Originally Posted by MrCode I suppose this is the part where I say that a non-deterministic universe doesn't grant "free will", either. In a non-deterministic universe, where everything is left up to random chance (i.e. no method to the madness at all; no continuous string of causality), if any kind of intelligent agent (let alone a human) could exist in such a universe, all of its acts are out of its control, because they are random, without prior cause.

Ever heard about "gray area"? In your example everything can be either completely predetermined or is completely chaotic, which is not the case in reality.
Also, in my opinion, you should visit psychologist - because you literally WANT to prove that your life is meaningless and you have no control over it and get depressed because of it. Sounds like a problem you need to fix.

Originally Posted by MrCode I suppose this is the part where I say that a non-deterministic universe doesn't grant "free will", either.{...}

The trouble with free will is - its real definition is still blurish. We can say we know free will between one person or another but we don't know relationship yet between our "free will" and universe itself. There is even theory that we have free will but it is limited(to not destroy ourselves and others) and "law of attraction" makes possible things happen for you if you wish so at end it looks like coinsidence when you analyze it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0846789/

{...}Everything I've read/seen on the topic since has seemed to confirm my ideas…although I suppose you're gonna say that I've just been blindly following a certain philosophy…

Untill it is prooven and prooven as only real valid truth yes it is just idea.

@MrCode: You seem to overlook that not everything that follows the laws of physics is pre-determined. Ever heard of quantum physics, where the physicians work with chances?

Ever heard of quantum physics, where the physicians work with chances?

Yes, but as I said in a previous post, that doesn't say much about free will; it's still random chance, i.e. outside your control.

Anyways, I'm starting to feel a bit better now…I get easily frustrated with that topic sometimes; it's become personal. Usually what happens is that I'll read something, see what implications it has for free will/determinism/etc., and I go off on a rant/flame about how free will is an illusion, everything is meaningless, etc.

I think a big part of why I bring it up here is a) personal issues (SigTerm's right about that one ), and b) because it seems like an issue that's only so lightly touched upon in debates/arguments about religion and atheism. I guess I've become a bit "militant" myself, even though it's the very thing I loath…

I suppose I should save the ranting for my blog from now on…or just not put it on the internet at all.

Originally Posted by MrCode {...}The only "logical" conclusion one can really come to when they take everything into account is moral nihilism; we're all just blobs of biological material (or more accurately, just "material", because "biological" is an abstraction) with about as much "freedom" as a wristwatch or a computer, and whose only real "purpose" (if such a term even has meaning) is to eat and fsck. Period.{...}

Do you really believe in this? Look around you. Life is full of different stuff than can make your life on Earth valuable. Just need to try open up. If you live in city go to countryside to breathe fresh air and have some adventures. Do stuff you like like music or tasty food or w|e. One great source of motivation and info comes from quotes. If you are gonna die anyway after some years then there is no real reason to end your life before that time. Besides think about your parents who put lot of effort in your well-beeing. You will just hurt not only yourself but them too. If you believe we come from monkeys then ask yourself why there still exist monkeys? Evolution kills previous versions.. Find some hobby, find some love..anything! Just don't do stupid stuff you would regret later if you have other choice.

Originally Posted by Arcane If you believe we come from monkeys then ask yourself why there still exist monkeys? Evolution kills previous versions..

Dumb creationist non-argument. If you don't understand evolution then you shouldn't argue about it.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD Dumb creationist non-argument. If you don't understand evolution then you shouldn't argue about it.

I'm not creatonist...current evidence supports that we come as seperate species not monkeys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo
I was just trying to help him get mood better.