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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 225 29.92%
Deist 23 3.06%
Theist 29 3.86%
Agnostic 148 19.68%
Atheist 327 43.48%
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:23 AM   #2551
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Science has no answer yet what is soul. We all know there is a soul with every living body.
Do we? Have you any proof that a thing like a soul even exists? And to say it again, no, your holy book is no proof.

Quote:
God does not need us in return. Instead we need him always.
Sorry, but I don't feel the need of a god.

Quote:
He gave us capability to analyze, think and choose.
And then he laughed out loud about that joke and gave us rules to follow. And if we don't follow them we will go to hell for eternity. Doesn't sound very nice.

Quote:
My logic and my belief says to me that God is one. I am not saying that because its written in Quran. Somewhere inside me I feel that, God is just one.
You don't seem to understand the term logic. Logic is deduction, not a feeling.

Quote:
When its not applicable now so why dont we leave that God to decide for those people.
So you know exactly what is wrong and what is right, but when someone comes up with a flaw in that you just call god for solving the problem. Isn't that a definition for blind faith?

Quote:
I said what God mentioned in my holy book.
Again, as stated many times before from many different members here, your holy book is not an evidence.

Quote:
If anyone has doubt, he may argue with God when his turn comes.
Same as before. You claim something, when asked for evidence you come up with your god. You have no evidence that your god exists, so calling people to discuss with him about evidences is simply pointless.

Quote:
I have personally no problem what other people following and to whom they are praying. They have full rights, freedom of religion. But people should know whom they are praying to.
Any believer knows to whom he/she is praying. Otherwise believing would make no sense. I can't help myself, but this whole thing sounds like: Pray to whom you want, I respect that. But if it is not my god you will burn in hell anyway.


Having read all of your posts and all of your so called arguments I come the conclusion that you simply are not able to debate your religion. Debating means that you hear to the things other say to you, try to understand them and then try to disprove the arguments logically, if you disagree with those arguments. It may also come up that because of good arguments you may be re-thinking your viewpoint, just because it is not appropriate anymore.
But that seems not to work for you. This is written in Qur'an., Read the Qur'an. and Because my god said so. are not logical arguments. I also can't see you thinking about any of the arguments given to you, you just come up with the same non-arguments, circular logic and nothing (or tergiversations) when asked for evidences.

Leads me to the conclusion that you are blindly believing in your god, without thinking any further, which makes a serious debate with you impossible.

EDIT: Forgot one:
Quote:
They have full rights, freedom of religion.
That is not what your holy book (and the interpreters) says:http://islamqa.com/en/ref/43087

Last edited by TobiSGD; 08-12-2011 at 09:36 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 09:26 AM   #2552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Agree but a big number of people cant be made fool by one book, one human being and that too after 1500 years. Isn't?
A big number of people CAN be "fooled by one book, one being and that after 1500 years".
There are millions of theists and millions of atheists. Either theists or atheists are wrong, which means that one large group has been "fooled" by their beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Same way I am asking for evolution proofs with my friends here, there is no one convincing so far. Everyone is just making theories based on assumptions.
Your religion is older than theory of evolution AND you asked for proof yourself. By the way, people provided you enough evidence of evolution, and you yet to say anything that would support your own faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
There is no way it can happen without any support.
Requires proof and most likely is an incorrect assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Science has no answer yet what is soul. We all know there is a soul with every living body.
Don't speak for others. I have not seen any scientific proof of existence of soul. Before asking "what is it", you should be more concerned "does it exist".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Instead we need him always. He created us. It will be foolish to ask him to leave us.
Don't speak for others. *I* don't need any god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
He created us with a reason. Life is a challenge, full of sins. He let know us what is good or bad, correct or wrong. He gave us capability to analyze, think and choose.
In other words, god created humans for its own amusement, installed system of rules, and made people suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
God is not a person.
Does "Not a person" means that a god possesses no intelligence? In this case, it definitely should not be trusted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
This is all you are saying because you didnt read the Quran. Unfortunately full book cant be copy paste here, and partial statements wont help much.
I heard similar arguments before, regarding bible. After I've read it, my opinion didn't change, but I lost all respect I had towards christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
My logic and my belief says to me that God is one.
Which means you *think this way* but can't prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
If one read Quran, will realize it can not be written by any human being.
I have zero reason to read quran because I don't see any sign of "unachievable wisdom" behind words you say about your faith, which means your religion would not improve me and will not be useful for me. You underestimate humans, and overestimate importance of one book (of unknown origin). If in order to prove your belief one needs to read entire quran, there's something deeply wrong with your belief. Proof of existence of god needs to be more obvious. If the only thing that supports your life is one holy text written 1500 years ago, then it is really, really sad, because that text works as a crutch you can't live without. Relying on "holy" text, ancient rules and "god's help" is a waste of your potential - you should be able to live without all that, faith should enrich your life, and instead it limits it - because you turn to holy text for "guidance" on every occasion, which looks pathetic for me. Basis of your faith is way too complex and inelegant to have divine origin. A deity should be capable to cram everything it wants to tell to humans into one page of text, simple enough to comprehend for everybody. And what do I see instead of that? An old, ancient texts, lengthy and complicated, that can be misinterpreted by anybody.

Your book does not prove existence of god, because it can be a piece of fiction written by humans.

Last edited by SigTerm; 08-12-2011 at 09:37 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 09:49 AM   #2553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}A deity should be capable to cram everything it wants to tell to humans into one page of text, simple enough to comprehend for everybody. And what do I see instead of that? An old, ancient texts, lengthy and complicated, that can be misinterpreted by anybody.{...}
Yes and it gets worse. According to holy books, God even forced the language to not be one everywhere therefore understanding ancient text with nowaday languages is contradicting God's plan itself. Not mention other religions also made their own interpretations for themselves. Another but different Bible cartoon about this is here.

Last edited by Arcane; 08-12-2011 at 09:51 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 10:00 AM   #2554
ShaanAli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
WTF? Ok. How long then? If you can't answer this then your statement is lie.
Answer is there, not proof. If there is no proof of something, does not mean that is a lie unless its is proved as lie.

Quote:
See? You don't even care to read and understand discussion. There is option to search in thread and there is option to manually browse through pages. Seems like you really are troll because you even said word "plz".
What, Plz world is not there in a Atheist dictionary? I asked when I couldn't search that. Will you mind help?

Quote:
So are other religion believers saying. You are not superior because of that. If you are - proove it and we will believe and some will apologize even but untill then don't expect blindness acceptance from others.
I have no issue with what others doing. Its not my business to interfere them. Since we all are here, our discussion point is God, so ofcourse points will come out. I am not forcing anyone to believe what I believe, but we should know whom we are blindly praying is a real God or not. You will ask same question back to me, to your answer we pray God with no image. Yes we pray God with no image. When we pray there is nothing infront of us but God in mind. This makes a big difference between my religion to any other religion. Almost all religions have pictures of God. Christians pray Jesus, while Jesus never said he was God and never said to pray him and ask forgiveness from him. If he was God why he was seeking help from God while crucified. Christians call Jesus son of God. If he was son of God, why people are praying son of God, why not directly to God???? No one think of that.




Quote:

Then why are you trying to proove your God is better then others? Others actually "feel" there is some other God not your so what? What if some religion even today believes in many Gods and "feels" it? They are wrong? but they have same support base as you have - faith without science evidence but with written text piece.
I never said my God is better then anyone else God. BECAUSE I NEVER SAID THERE ARE 2 OR MORE GODS. God is one, so i will be fool if i say my God is better then his God.

If anyone feels there are more than one God, I cant do anything in that.


Quote:
Who said it was written by only one person?
Who even said it was written by human being. Writing here means not penning.


Quote:
You won't proove|disproove God by prooving|disprooving Evolution or Aliens or something else...because there is also possibilty that there exists none and there exists all of them. You can only proove God by prooving God. Simple.
There is no need to prove God. One can see all around his signs. You can not see because your eyes are closed. Quran said correct about Atheists:


Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not.

In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.
Quran 2:6-13
 
Old 08-12-2011, 10:10 AM   #2555
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
So your god is sending this people to hell willfully? Why? He caused them to be non-believers and then punish them for that. Your god seems to be really cruel.

But as said before, neither what is written in your book is an evidence, nor sentences like
Quote:
There is no need to prove God. One can see all around his signs.
If I look around I can see a wonderful world (or ugly cities, depending where I am currently), but where is the sign of god?
 
Old 08-12-2011, 10:14 AM   #2556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Answer is there, not proof. If there is no proof of something, does not mean that is a lie unless its is proved as lie.{...}
Ok i will then now call police and say them to arrest you for murder(which exists only in this second writing example in mind to make you think about what you just said). Works for me according to this logic.
Quote:
{...}What, Plz world is not there in a Atheist dictionary? I asked when I couldn't search that. Will you mind help?{...}
Nope and search is still not disabled.
Quote:
{...}I have no issue with what others doing. Its not my business to interfere them. Since we all are here, our discussion point is God, so ofcourse points will come out. I am not forcing anyone to believe what I believe, but we should know whom we are blindly praying is a real God or not.{...}
Not true. If you mention + argue that there is just 1 real God then you have issues.
Quote:
{...}Who even said it was written by human being. Writing here means not penning.{...}
Science and logic said and you see everyday + in video from before that we can trust science. Humans exist? Yes. Can they write? Yes. Can you answer these questions about God so easy? According to you and books God can't write even so "he" needs writer.
Quote:
{...}Quran said correct about Atheists:{...}
Why do you think I or other people talking with you are atheists? It again prooves you don't read posts of other people. If Quran said that then well no wonder where this emptiness comes from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}He created us with a reason. Life is a challenge, full of sins. He let know us what is good or bad, correct or wrong. He gave us capability to analyze, think and choose.
Indeed he knows what our next action will be, but he left us to take decision of our own. So that we will be soley responsible for our actions. We may not be able to make him responsible for our actions.
We are not responsible for whatever happened 1000 years before, or ever whatever done by our relatives. Everybody is responsible for his own deeds.{...}
Ok then what will be for people who are forced to be or become evil or do evil with time to survive? or those who do not know rules? You know not everyone has good family or friends who don't do crimes, education, correct manners so on. Or for example law enforcement officer who has to kill some terrorist to save others? What about these people? They disobeyed rule not to kill for example to do greater thing - save others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}Well, if there is a god, and the world around me is result of god's design, then (IMO) it would be quite reasonable to find and destroy the creator (so it won't ever make same mess again) or at least force it to finally leave humans alone.{...}
Unless the world we see today was created by us humans not God(many religions says that God first created Earth then left us alone to build our own destiny) and unless God won't attack first like in next year prophecy so that shouldn't be much reason to blame God for mess we see today.

Last edited by Arcane; 08-12-2011 at 10:54 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 10:42 AM   #2557
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
If there is no proof of something, does not mean that is a lie unless its is proved as lie.
It doesn't mean it is "truth" either. It means that it is unknown whether statement is lie or a truth, which means the statement can't be used in logical reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
God is one,
This does not explain polytheism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Who even said it was written by human being. Writing here means not penning.
All books I ever encountered were written by humans. If you claim that your book was not written by human, it means that it is an exception, so you have to prove non-human origin. If you can't, then I'll think that it was written by human. Humans have VERY good imagination (anybody who ever read fiction/science fiction would agree), so no matter what is written within the book, you won't be able to use the text itself to prove divine origin of the book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
There is no need to prove God. One can see all around his signs. You can not see because your eyes are closed. Quran said correct about Atheists:
Well, if there is a god, and the world around me is result of god's design, then (IMO) it would be quite reasonable to find and destroy the creator (so it won't ever make same mess again) or at least force it to finally leave humans alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
[/I] Quran 2:6-13
I wonder why can't you understand that a word from quran means nothing for non-muslim.


The big problem with your religion (and christianity) is that both use threats to make you comply with rules. I.e. "obey or burn in hell", in other words - "freedom at the gunpoint". I do not find this acceptable, because in human world this is called coercion/blackmail, which is a crime. If a deity exists and such rules indeed originate from some kind of deity, then the deity should be dealt with - destroyed, exiled or stripped from its power (I'm sure that humans can find a way to do it, given enough time). The only form of communication with "divine" power I would accept is a contract - agreement between human and non-human parties, from which both parties benefit, willingly accepted by both of them without use of force/threats/etc. Contract that does not contradict my moral code is okay. An "obey or die" rule is not. You can't really use the act of creation of world as an excuse to make me respect the creator - I have not asked for anything (life/world/etc), and using "gifts" to make me worship is bad manners. Besides, the world is pretty screwed up if you think about it. Another big problem is that in your case your faith seems to limit you - you seem to think that there are things only god could do, that humans cannot be left alone without gods attention, and that they require "divine guidance" to live. I find this attitude unhealthy and non-productive.

Last edited by SigTerm; 08-12-2011 at 11:15 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 12:57 PM   #2558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}If a deity exists and such rules indeed originate from some kind of deity, then the deity should be dealt with - destroyed, exiled or stripped from its power (I'm sure that humans can find a way to do it, given enough time).{...}
Good points but no matter outcome we still would need to deal with two or three things:
1)Find who is real God(s)(some people even say humans are result of God(s) in terms that "he" sacrificed "himself" into each and every one of us therefore stopped exist "himself").
2)Even if we could "touch"(strip, kill, injure) God(s) we should still first listen to "his" side of story before jumping to conclusions about how lame God is|isn't and killing is not solution for example even God-haters would understand that non-kill would work too since at least they would find out some new important information that would help science(therefore humans) even more in their quest.
3)There is no guarantee we would win in fight against "him" or God(s) won't attack us first for w|e reason.

Last edited by Arcane; 08-12-2011 at 01:15 PM.
 
Old 08-12-2011, 04:12 PM   #2559
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Any believer knows to whom he/she is praying. Otherwise believing would make no sense. I can't help myself, but this whole thing sounds like: Pray to whom you want, I respect that. But if it is not my god you will burn in hell anyway.
Actually, I don't think believers necessarily know to whom they are praying. There's a powerful argument to be made that the word "god" is incoherent. See theological noncognitivism.

Some theological noncognitivists assert that to be a strong atheist is to give credence to the concept of God because it assumes that there actually is something understandable to not believe in. This can be confusing because of the widespread belief in God and the common use of the series of letters G-o-d as if it is already understood that it has some cognitively understandable meaning. From this view strong atheists have made the mistaken assumption that the concept of God actually contains an expressible or thinkable proposition. However this depends on the specific definition of God being used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli
There is no need to prove God. One can see all around his signs. You can not see because your eyes are closed. Quran said correct about Atheists
If the fact of the existent of the universe is evidence for God, it is equally evidence for any God and there is absolutely no reason to accept the tenants of a particular religion. However, it clearly is not evidence for an interventionist God, ie, a God who violates the laws of nature and performs miracles. Lacking an interventionist god, the universe looks the same whether there is a deity or not. The more parsimonious explanation is that there is not.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 01:23 AM   #2560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
For him all human being are same does not matter which religion one follow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
The biggest sin is to associate anyone with GOD and pray someone else instead of GOD. For that there will be no God mercy.
Questions:
1. So, you mean that if I pray to Lord Ram instead of Allah, Allah would have no problems with it, right? But then you say it is a sin to "pray someone else instead of GOD", and in that case since I consider "Lord Ram" rather than "Allah", as my God, Allah won't spare me? Contradictory statements?

2. What do you think "Kafir" means? What does Quran say about treatment of "Kafirs"?
 
Old 08-13-2011, 06:44 AM   #2561
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On a side note if we speak about atheists or science on trial there are few important details we should look at even if we don't believe in supernatural but from pure scientific view:

- First of all we need to answer what is science, where it comes from and what its original goal is? It is organised observed knowledge based on our 5 senses which just like money or laws exists only in books and our heads. Also we need to remember science is limited to acquired knowledge of world and it's goal was never to replace God(s). The pure fact that it is created upon our 5 senses makes it worthy to be questioned since God by definition works in higher levels than 5 senses.
- We forget possibility that science is not only working and proovable way to proove reality in universe but is just one of we have found that works so we stick and rely to it. This could explain why we think there is no Aliens, God(s) or some other thing because we assume the only way to proove something is by using our scientific methods. We seem to forget that there could be other ways to communicate with them or proove them. For example movies, games, sci-fi books, dreams can be prooved that they are real(in their own way) but they don't fit into same sort of proof we ask when talking about this world we live in.
- Atheists forget they are also believers just they believe there is no God(s) but also can't proove it and they forget science goal is not to proove|disproove something but to search and find truth no matter how ugly or beautifull it may be.
- Both atheists and believers want to close their minds to new possibilities, new discoveries, new methods, new arguments etc. in other words both of them perform lifestyle that pays attention to problems not solutions. Believers cause harm by forcing their God version and atheists who claim there is no God are not better because they are doing same thing just without God(s) included. None of them are trying to help in quest of truth or to improve our lives.
- Atheists like previously stated by other people base their claim on specific religion debunk but they forget that religion can be fake description|proof of God therefore if they proove some religion is fake they haven't disprooved God(s) in whole but only that specific religion plus this approach makes them bit ignorant.
- Science is just tool to get answer not answer itself
- Before disprooving anything we must first find and describe it|them

These are just some of reasons why i support this answer approach to God, Alien, Evolution -> We don't know..yet. <-
 
Old 08-13-2011, 07:05 AM   #2562
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Quote:
This could explain why we think there is no Aliens
Uhm, you do know about SETI, right? That makes it seem to me like there are plenty of scientists who believe intelligent, sentient alien lifeforms exist "out there" somewhere…please correct me if I'm being totally ignorant about this.

Now, if we're talking about aliens visiting Earth

Quote:
Both atheists and believers want to close their minds to new possibilities, new discoveries, new methods, new arguments etc. in other words both of them perform lifestyle that pays attention to problems not solutions. Believers cause harm by forcing their God version and atheists who claim there is no God are not better because they are doing same thing just without God(s) included.
Pretty much agreed…it doesn't matter whether you're atheist or religious/spiritual, you can be an @$$hole either way.

Quote:
Science is just tool to get answer not answer itself
Also agreed. When people say things like "science says <blablabla>", IMO what they really mean is "current scientific evidence says <blablabla>".

Anyways, that's my . For once, I write a post here that's not angsty or flame-bait, yay!
 
Old 08-13-2011, 08:27 AM   #2563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
On a side note if we speak about atheists or science on trial there are few important details we should look at even if we don't believe in supernatural but from pure scientific view:

- First of all we need to answer what is science, where it comes from and what its original goal is? It is organised observed knowledge based on our 5 senses which just like money or laws exists only in books and our heads. Also we need to remember science is limited to acquired knowledge of world and it's goal was never to replace God(s). The pure fact that it is created upon our 5 senses makes it worthy to be questioned since God by definition works in higher levels than 5 senses.
If we grant that God works in "higher levels" (whatever that could possibly mean) inaccessible to scientific inquiry, then we are left in the position that we cannot have any knowledge of God for any meaningful definition of the word "knowledge". But believers are not content to let God exist in some non-material, non-interventionist way. They make specific claims about the material universe, be it demonic possession, parting the red seas, or that the earth is 6000 years old. These claims can and have been refuted. If there is a God, it bears no resemblance to the ones depicted in human religions, based on current evidence. And people make specific, often conflicting, claims about the nature of God. How can anyone know God's nature? Obviously, you cannot or we wouldn't have such universal disagreement. For the outside observer, there is no way to choose one claim over another lacking any empirical evidence for any of them. So while some particular claim about God might be true, there is no possible way for us know that it is true and no possible justification to believe that it is true.

Quote:
- Atheists forget they are also believers just they believe there is no God(s) but also can't proove it and they forget science goal is not to proove|disproove something but to search and find truth no matter how ugly or beautifull it may be.
Am I also a "believer" because I believe there is no giant pink unicorn ruling the universe from the Andromeda galaxy? There are an infinite number of claims that could be made and can't be disproven. That's why the burden of proof is on the claimant.

Quote:
- Both atheists and believers want to close their minds to new possibilities, new discoveries, new methods, new arguments etc. in other words both of them perform lifestyle that pays attention to problems not solutions. Believers cause harm by forcing their God version and atheists who claim there is no God are not better because they are doing same thing just without God(s) included. None of them are trying to help in quest of truth or to improve our lives.
Most atheists I know are doing just the opposite. They see the harm that irrational beliefs cause and are working to make the world a better place by reducing the influence of religion. And most of them are also motivated by a profound love of truth and the quest thereof, which is why religion is such an affront in its obscurantism and banality. The universe as it actually appears to be is so much more wondrous and mysterious than stories of apples and sin.

Quote:
- Atheists like previously stated by other people base their claim on specific religion debunk but they forget that religion can be fake description|proof of God therefore if they proove some religion is fake they haven't disprooved God(s) in whole but only that specific religion plus this approach makes them bit ignorant.
Every atheist I know recognizes the futility of disproving all possible Gods. As I mentioned before, there are an infinite number of claims that could be made, it would be impossible to disprove them all. Do you spend a lot of time speculating on whether there is an evil Moose at the center of the galaxy? By your criteria it apparently makes you a bit ignorant not to.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 08:42 AM   #2564
MrCode
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And most of them are also motivated by a profound love of truth and the quest thereof
Yes, truths like the fact that free will is an illusion (look it up), and that all acts are inherently meaningless…oh, but that's right, you're supposed to "make meaning for yourself"! Why bother…it's already determined what "meaning" you will find in this life, if any.

Yes, I know, I just went from mildly happy to completely depressed…something just came up here that put me in a sh*tty mood. Call me a troll if you like…it's all just a part of the mere chain of causality anyway…nothing more…anything "more" is an illusion to be avoided at all costs (even personal "happiness"), or so it would seem.

This is what irritates me about this whole attitude of "stamp out anything even remotely related to religion/faith/anything non-materialistic": it seems like nobody takes into account the implications of such an objective. The only "logical" conclusion one can really come to when they take everything into account is moral nihilism; we're all just blobs of biological material (or more accurately, just "material", because "biological" is an abstraction) with about as much "freedom" as a wristwatch or a computer, and whose only real "purpose" (if such a term even has meaning) is to eat and fsck. Period.

I might just quit LQ for a while…

(Disclaimer: I don't consider myself religious, but this whole "militant atheism/materialism" thing drives me nuts…)

Last edited by MrCode; 08-13-2011 at 08:55 AM.
 
Old 08-13-2011, 08:54 AM   #2565
Arcane
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Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
If we grant that God works in "higher levels" (whatever that could possibly mean) inaccessible to scientific inquiry, then we are left in the position that we cannot have any knowledge of God for any meaningful definition of the word "knowledge".{...}
This is true if we ignore possibility God communicated with us in past, tries to or does communicate with us in present or will communicate in future with us in some way we may understand. Science is just one reasonable way of language to do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
Quote:
{...}They make specific claims about the material universe, be it demonic possession, parting the red seas, or that the earth is 6000 years old. These claims can and have been refuted. If there is a God, it bears no resemblance to the ones depicted in human religions, based on current evidence. And people make specific, often conflicting, claims about the nature of God. How can anyone know God's nature? Obviously, you cannot or we wouldn't have such universal disagreement.{...}
This is what i am talking about from the beginning. Either you know truth and can proove it or you do not know and just believe in something.
Quote:
{...}Am I also a "believer" because I believe there is no giant pink unicorn ruling the universe from the Andromeda galaxy?{...}
That was not my point but in a way it is true because there is a possibility tomorrow to discover something we assumed does not exist at all yesterday and today. Science is just like Evolution - it changes with time. Most of nowaday stuff we take for granted was sci-fi for ancient people. Also you need to specify about which universe you speak about because many stuff has been created in virtual reality, imagination so on and there they do exist. Ok ok ok. I know you was speaking about this one but then again there is stuff we could not know and this is why science can evolve. As previously stated non-proovable&non-disproovable stuff atm(at the moment) are not usefull in discussion like this.
Quote:
{...}Every atheist I know recognizes the futility of disproving all possible Gods.{...}
In that case they should re-read what term atheist stands for. It rejects any deities whatsoever. If they reject specific religion they should invent new word meaning for example that they deny only Bible version of God for example but keep possibility there still exists some other form of deity or "higher power".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Last edited by Arcane; 08-13-2011 at 09:00 AM.
 
  


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