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firm believer
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Old 10-17-2010, 01:54 PM   #1066
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eveningsky339 View Post
Do you not realize how many millions have died as a result of "atheism"? Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot...
Hitler actually USED religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._anti-Semitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...atholic_ritual

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._and_Ariosophy
 
Old 10-17-2010, 02:25 PM   #1067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eveningsky339
It's funny how some atheists can be "religiously anti-religious".
Agreed...now watch me get flamed for this one: *cough* atheism, to some people anymore, is like a "religion" of its own *cough*. This isn't to say I'm devoutly religious (should be obvious from my last post on the previous page...not religious, just existential ), but seriously, the anti-religious ranting gets on my nerves...A LOT.

(*awaits thorough verbal abuse*)
 
Old 10-17-2010, 02:28 PM   #1068
sycamorex
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Quote:
(*awaits thorough verbal abuse*)
...yawn...
 
Old 10-17-2010, 02:48 PM   #1069
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eveningsky339 View Post
And now before the thread spirals out of control, I will go spend my time elsewhere, happy to be religious.
Like a drunk who's happy he doesn't have to face reality.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 03:49 PM   #1070
MrCode
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Quote:
Like a drunk who's happy he doesn't have to face reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Materialism, to me, is just depressing: imagination is just sparks in the brain, everything is predetermined, there is no afterlife or a such thing as reincarnation, etc.


I find it ironic that the one tag for this thread is "humor"...it's anything but humorous.

Last edited by MrCode; 10-17-2010 at 04:02 PM. Reason: emphasis of point
 
Old 10-17-2010, 04:31 PM   #1071
jay73
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eveningsky339 http://static.linuxquestions.org/que...s/viewpost.gif
Do you not realize how many millions have died as a result of "atheism"? Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot...

Hitler actually USED religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._anti-Semitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H...atholic_ritual

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._and_Ariosophy
Why do you mention Hitler only? Why don't you have anything to say about Stalin or Pol Pot?
And yes, maybe Hitler USED religion, but if you had read those quoted paragraphs, you would have found that Hitler's religion was vague if not non-existent. And, oh yes, the Nazis (and the allies) USED chemistry and physics to murder millions - isn't it about those subjects were removed - urgently - from any school curriculum? And since we are on the subject of bans, both communism and nazism were side-effects of capitalism. Time for global communism and world government?

Last edited by jay73; 10-17-2010 at 04:37 PM.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 04:37 PM   #1072
MrCode
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Just one more thing about people here who are so vehemently against any kind of belief system other than materialism/determinism/whatever:

Fear of death is a very natural thing...of course people are going to hope for something beyond it. What I have to ask is: what gives you such comfort in nothingness after death? The idea, to me, is very disturbing, and that's part of why I have such a beef against materialism. The other parts I've alreay outlined: materialism inevitably leads to determinism, because if one believes that the physical universe is all that was, is, and ever will be, then one must also believe that the laws that govern it apply to everything, including living beings (since after all, we're just blobs of carbon-based matter), thus you can't believe in "free will", because within that doctrine, it's an absurdity: the chain of causality cannot be broken by anything, not even humans, as they are victims of this chain of cause and effect just as much as any other entities in the universe. cantab had a point, dammit, and that's what depresses me! No freedom = everything is a result of circumstance and therefore meaningless. Any "meaning" ascribed to one's "intentions" or actions are an illusion, not to mention that the concept of "intention" is also illusory (since all acts are predetermined; no act is truly "intentional", it was a result of physical circumstance).

Also, randomness doesn't imply free will, it imples just what it is: randomness. It would simply mean you are being "controlled" by a random process. The issue lies in whether or not when one is given a choice, things must happen in the way that they do, without any other options.

Last edited by MrCode; 10-17-2010 at 04:44 PM.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 05:22 PM   #1073
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCode
Materialism, to me, is just depressing: imagination is just sparks in the brain, everything is predetermined, there is no afterlife or a such thing as reincarnation, etc.
I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
 
Old 10-17-2010, 05:37 PM   #1074
MrCode
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....*sigh*....

Okay, I know you're gonna hate me for quote-sniping Carl Sagan, but just a few things:

Quote:
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth
What are "love" and "morality" but a by-product of meaningless chemical reactions and physical interactions?

Quote:
much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. (...) there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence
Lack of evidence != lack of existence
(*cue arguments along the lines of "but you can't prove it, therefore it is meaningless!"*)

Quote:
Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
"Magnificent"? What is "magnificence" but a meaningless human abstraction of reality? Another mere survival mechanism in the end?

Yeah, I'm pretty stuck in the proverbial hell-hole that is existentialism.

Last edited by MrCode; 10-17-2010 at 05:39 PM.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 05:41 PM   #1075
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCode View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty stuck in the proverbial hell-hole that is existentialism.
Please see a psychiatrist.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 06:06 PM   #1076
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Believers tend to look down on atheism as something pessimistic/depressing. On the contrary, I think
atheists are capable of enjoying the earthly life more fully than believers for whom this life is
just a passing moment, some preparation for the eternal life.
For me life is something wonderful. The fact that I can pursue my hobbies, talk to friends, love
some people is so great. It's the only chance I get. I don't hope I'll have another life and I don't
see anything depressing about it. I prefer to face the truth and enjoy what I've got. I would not be
comfortable living in (false?) hopes about some other life. I wouldn't be able to base my whole life
on some stories about God (whose existence is as probable as the existence of Zeus/Spaghetti Monster/etc)

Quote:
"Magnificent"? What is "magnificence" but a meaningless human abstraction of reality? Another mere survival mechanism in the end?
One's life is what one makes of it. No offence, but if you want to spend your entire life crying that everything is meaningless - your choice.
My life is too short to waste it like that.
 
Old 10-17-2010, 06:39 PM   #1077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easuter
Please see a psychiatrist.
Consider this my last post to the thread, then. I can at least take a break from this forum...I know I said I was going away before and I didn't hold myself to that, but if someone I don't even know personally is telling me I need psych help over the internet...yeah, I need to get off of here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex
For me life is something wonderful. The fact that I can pursue my hobbies, talk to friends, love
some people is so great. It's the only chance I get. (...) One's life is what one makes of it.
I guess what gets to me the most is the idea that everything is predetermined, and the fact that it renders moot (for me) a lot of the positive aspects of life (e.g. art, hobbies, etc.). It basically means that I was never responsible for anything I've ever done (*is sounding like a hypocrite*), good or bad. This obviously depresses me, and makes me believe that nothing I do in the future will "mean" anything either because whatever I do, I do because I'm supposed to do it, as a result of the laws of nature, nothing more. It makes me feel powerless and impotent. I have a feeling this is what some other people use as part of their reasoning for their faith, whatever it may be (I could be wrong, though... :s).
 
Old 10-17-2010, 09:51 PM   #1078
lupusarcanus
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MrCode is a wonderful, valuable member to the forum.
 
Old 10-18-2010, 03:39 AM   #1079
jiml8
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Atheism is no different than a religion. All of them claim to know, to some extent or another, the nature of god, and they presume therefore to know what god wants them to do. In the case of atheism, the "nature of god" is nonexistent. Therefore, god wants them to do...nothing.

Atheism, just like every other religion, assumes facts not in evidence and makes the same logical fallacy as every religion makes. Religion says that since the existence of god is not disproven, it is therefore proven. The fallacy is trivially obvious. Atheism says that since the existence of god is not proven it is disproven. The fallacy is equally trivially obvious, since it is the identical fallacy.
 
Old 10-18-2010, 06:31 AM   #1080
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I'm breaking my own promise but here's this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easuter View Post
Like a drunk who's happy he doesn't have to face reality.
Reality is when we die, we have no level of consciousness or memory, right?

So neither you nor I are going to remember any of this, or that we even existed, right?

Better to be drunk and face that fate, than be sober and face that same fate. Glad I'm not you.

(Of course I don't buy the atheism thing, too ignorant for my tastes. But I can play along.)
 
  


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