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I never said I was religious. I've edited my post; see the disclaimer.
All I'm saying is that there seems to me to be little point to life when all is determined solely by the laws of physics; hopes, desires and intentions are illusions/abstractions, "control" is an illusion, etc.
I'd seriously like to hear your justification for "free will". Either that, or how one can possibly consider themselves morally responsible for their acts when they have been predetermined since the beginning of the universe; all their thoughts, emotions, words, etc. from birth 'till death. That's what I mean when I say that nihilism is the only "logical" conclusion (<- in quotes for a reason; I'd like to think there's another way, but I can't see it).
I hate being tempted by this thread…but it's apparently the path the universe hath set for me…
I think you're confusing different definitions of "free will". The universe does not seem to be predetermined, LaPlace's Demon could not calculate the course of everything. IF we rewound time and started again, there is no guarantee humans would evolve or any of that. But the connection from that to whether humans can control our actions is tenuous at best. If you mean free will inasmuch as we have some consciousness/will that is not subject to the laws of physics and that does not arise from matter, ie, our brains and bodies, then no, we don't have that. I don't have the free will to think as a dog does, I am constrained by human biology to think like a human, for example. But that doesn't mean we are incapable of making meaningful choices. We have, as Dan Dennett has argued, the only type of free will worth wanting, "the power to be active agents, biological devices that respond to our environment with rational, desirable courses of action".
As for moral nihilism, the third way between nihilism and absolutism is being articulated by the philosopher Massimo Pigliucci:
"* Moral absolutism: X is universally right / wrong.
Indefensible because one cannot make coherent sense of what “universally” may possibly mean in this context.
* Moral relativism: X is acceptable / non-acceptable practice within a particular culture at a particular historical moment.
Inevitably leads to either sterile nihilism or to some sort of hidden absolutism.
* Moral reasonism (for lack of a better term): If assumptions {W,Z} are accepted, then X is right / wrong.
Where the assumptions are provided by our best (and changing) understanding of human nature, and the rest is done via rational thinking."
Some complaints about Elbow Room relate to our intuitions about free will. Some say that Dennett's theory does not satisfactorily deal with the issue of why we feel so strongly that we do have behavioral choice. One answer to this question is that our sensation of having behavioral choice has been carefully selected by evolution. The well developed human sensation of having free will and being able to select among possible behaviors has strong survival value. People who lose the feeling that they can plan alternative behaviors and execute their choice of possible behaviors tend to become fatalistic and stop struggling for survival. According to Dennett, belief in free will is a necessary condition for having free will. When we are planning for the future and thinking about possible actions to take in the future, we are utilizing considerable amounts of biologically expensive resources (brain power). Evolution has designed us to feel strongly that all of our effort of planning pays off, that we control what we do. If this connection between our brains' efforts to model reality and predict the future and so make possible good outcomes is disconnected from our sense of self and our will, then fatalism and self-destructive behaviors are close at hand.
Great, so I'm being selected against. Thanks for the help…
So much for my good mood…if subscribing to delusions is required for "survival", then maybe I don't want to survive… I don't know anymore…
MrCode
Have you ever thought of channeling all your negativity into creativity? A lot of, if not all, creative people (writers, artists, composers,etc) have been depressive, neurotic, or just plain crazy. Write a novel.
So much for polite discussion if we start using words like "dumb". Here is new possibility for Evolution die-hard fans What if God created Aliens or is Alien itself and Aliens came to this planet frequently and actually planted that Homo gene in our ancient us and through Evolution we are where we are? Because even with all this Evolution evidence you still have to ask where this special Homo gene came from in first place and why are we only living species that carries this gene through time? Sure our bodies may come from Ape family but what about spiritual and mind source? Wikipedia as example says other species went extinct but what if there were no other species at all? What if we were project of Aliens and therefore all these pyramids exist and we have ancient book we can't understand directly and unique predictions through time that actually fits science? Seriously..it reminds me of recent event - my mother lost important document some time ago, she looked all the time in wrong place while many of us suggested tried other places she could have placed it and methods how to find it but she refused till today because today she found her long gone document in different place just like we suggested. Conclusion: Question things before accept them.
P.S.Again i am not claiming this is true blablabla but FFS start thinking outside-box more and allow new options in your head - it is for our own good afterall. Even recent world event signs(Vatican accepts alien theory for example. 2012.) suggests to rethink how we see this world. Even if it is all fake and nothing will happen i still believe in proven method - better be safe and prepared than sorry(just like with backup).
In a non-deterministic universe ... [an agent's] acts are out of its control, because they are random, without prior cause. In a deterministic universe, the agent's acts are ... also out of its "control".
Can you describe any universe in which an agent's acts would be in its "control"? It seems to me that the problem here is that nobody can really define what "free will" is, so of course it will never be the conclusion of any logical argument.
No proponent of evolution ever claimed that we evolved from modern monkeys, so I wouldn't say that this is current evidence.
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actually planted that Homo gene
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this special Homo gene
Where did you get this Homo gene from? Can you show it to me or give a link to an article that says something about the Homo gene? Sorry, but again, if you don't understand how evolution works (and a basic understanding will be sufficient here) you shouldn't argue about it. If I want to discuss mathematical formulas I have to get an insight in mathematics first. Same is true for every other science, including evolution.
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Wikipedia as example says other species went extinct but what if there were no other species at all?
And the aliens planted the fossils into the earth as part of their experiment? Is as plausible as the theory that god put them there.
Quote:
So much for polite discussion if we start using words like "dumb".
Sorry for that, but if you come up with an argument that you will find 100s of times from creationists when googling for that only 10 seconds, and that has been proven wrong 1000s of time and you see those proofs also when googling for 10 seconds then I can only think about "dumb", and that is one of the more harmless words that come to my mind.
So much for polite discussion if we start using words like "dumb". Here is new possibility for Evolution die-hard fans What if God created Aliens or is Alien itself and Aliens came to this planet frequently and actually planted that Homo gene in our ancient us and through Evolution we are where we are? Because even with all this Evolution evidence you still have to ask where this special Homo gene came from in first place and why are we only living species that carries this gene through time? Sure our bodies may come from Ape family but what about spiritual and mind source? Wikipedia as example says other species went extinct but what if there were no other species at all? What if we were project of Aliens and therefore all these pyramids exist and we have ancient book we can't understand directly and unique predictions through time that actually fits science? Seriously..it reminds me of recent event - my mother lost important document some time ago, she looked all the time in wrong place while many of us suggested tried other places she could have placed it and methods how to find it but she refused till today because today she found her long gone document in different place just like we suggested. Conclusion: Question things before accept them.
P.S.Again i am not claiming this is true blablabla but FFS start thinking outside-box more and allow new options in your head - it is for our own good afterall. Even recent world event signs(Vatican accepts alien theory for example. 2012.) suggests to rethink how we see this world. Even if it is all fake and nothing will happen i still believe in proven method - better be safe and prepared than sorry(just like with backup).
Your entire premise is based on the faulty assumption that the human genetic code is somehow special. It isn't. And on the faulty assumption of dualism, that the mind is not a product of the brain. It is.
P.S.Again i am not claiming this is true blablabla but FFS start thinking outside-box more and allow new options in your head - it is for our own good afterall. Even recent world event signs(Vatican accepts alien theory for example. 2012.) suggests to rethink how we see this world. Even if it is all fake and nothing will happen i still believe in proven method - better be safe and prepared than sorry(just like with backup).
If you didn't notice this then discussing with you more is useless. Time will tell but at least some people will be prepared. Have fun.
What if God created Aliens or is Alien itself and Aliens came to this planet frequently and actually planted that Homo gene in our ancient us and through Evolution we are where we are?
This has all been discussed in Chariots of the Gods (and other books by Erich von Däniken). As far as I know, his "findings", while fun to read and interesting, have been very much debunked.
If you didn't notice this then discussing with you more is useless. Time will tell but at least some people will be prepared. Have fun.
Is that towards me? I noticed it. But making weak hypotheses and speculating on tired old tropes that have been around for decades and lead nowhere is not thinking outside the box.
If all life descended from single-celled organisms then why do single-celled organisms still exist today?
Because, repeat after me, evolution is not progress, evolution is not progress, evolution is not progress. There is nowhere evolution is heading, there is no goal, no intrinsic drive to greater complexity, and to say that something is more "evolved" makes almost no sense. Evolution is just adaptation to a local environment. Some single celled organisms split off and went down another branch that allowed them to more successfully compete in their local environment, which may have entailed more complexity, some cells were doing just fine in their environment and remained stable.
Because, repeat after me, evolution is not progress, evolution is not progress, evolution is not progress. There is nowhere evolution is heading, there is no goal, no intrinsic drive to greater complexity, and to say that something is more "evolved" makes almost no sense. Evolution is just adaptation to a local environment. Some single celled organisms split off and went down another branch that allowed them to more successfully compete in their local environment, which may have entailed more complexity, some cells were doing just fine in their environment and remained stable.
I probably should have used ye olde <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags.
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