Would you ever go back to Windows??

tshikose · 08-18-2017, 01:26 AM

NO.
But real work requirement foced me to configure a virtual Windows 7 box.
There I am using Excel, PowerPoint and Word from Microsoft Office (to me they are just better for advanced features while compared to their LibreOffice equivalents).

Woolie Wool · 08-18-2017, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enorbet

@ Woolie_Wool - We have some similarities in that I have built every machine I've ever owned since 1989 with the exception of two laptops (a Sony and an IBM) and one Dell Tower I inherited. Additionally I am an avid gamer and even ran a 24/7 Minecraft server for a few years. I also run my main as a DAW with a custom kernel for realtime, low-latency (which is great for gaming if your hardware is up to the task) and actually that was the last holdout obstacle to leaving Windows entirely about 7 years ago. I do have an old Win7 install lying around but I have gone for 14+ month stretches without ever booting it and i will never "upgrade" to 8 or 10, ever. Well I could possibly be seduced if Windows had an actual full root account, a customizable kernel, didn't force updates, didn't spy on me and became largely Open Source but then they never will and I already have that and more.

I would like to point out two things - (1) Swiss watches don't ask you to wait for several minutes while they run a forced update, and (2) WDC v. 1.8.398 (and everything that I don't have a native Linux alternative for) runs just fine in WINE. Maybe I should add one more - Between Wine and Steam it is an extremely rare occurrence that a game comes out that I can't run. There are a few that run better in Windows but most, especially those requiring quick responses and low latency TCP/IP networking, run better in Linux.

I do have a retro box running 98Lite but I may try to replace that with VirtualBox and/or FreeDOS.

Is 98Lite's installer easier/more reliable than the original Windows 98 installer? When I installed 98, it installed the network stack incorrectly and I had to remove and reinstall it. I don't know how a network stack fails to install, but '90s Microsoft could find a way to screw up anything. I still can't figure out how to connect Windows 98 to my home network (Windows 10 and Linux/Samba), though Windows 2000 can connect and share folders after I installed Update Roll-Up 1. I'm guessing 98 has no SMB2 support and never will, even with the unofficial service packs, kernelex, etc.

One thing I wish I could have in Windows that Linux has is desktop environments. Windows 10 is a UI train wreck and if a fully functional Windows port of a Linux environment existed, I would install it in a heartbeat. Too bad the only such port is KDE (which I find kind of baroque and convoluted compared to Xfce, MATE, or even Cinnamon) and it's broken.

wpeckham · 08-18-2017, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolie Wool

Is 98Lite's installer easier/more reliable than the original Windows 98 installer? When I installed 98, it installed the network stack incorrectly and I had to remove and reinstall it. I don't know how a network stack fails to install, but '90s Microsoft could find a way to screw up anything. I still can't figure out how to connect Windows 98 to my home network (Windows 10 and Linux/Samba), though Windows 2000 can connect and share folders after I installed Update Roll-Up 1. I'm guessing 98 has no SMB2 support and never will, even with the unofficial service packs, kernelex, etc.

Win98 and Win8 SE were using SMB1 and will never have an update to SMB2. They connect better to SAMBA shares that support original SMB than they do to current Windows servers.

That said, I hate using the CIFS/SMB share system anyway. IT opens the network to all of the encryption viruses if even one node is infected via the network shares. [But then, if security were an issue would you be using Win98?]

Woolie Wool · 08-18-2017, 11:37 AM

Well really I just wanted to send files from my Windows 10 box to my 98 box because 98 downloads files over the internet at about 20% the speed of Windows 10 and using the most recent compatible browser (Firefox 8.0, using KernelEx) is pure misery because of the 512MB RAM limit. Eventually I came to accept the futility of it and just do any networking I need on that PC in Windows 2000. IMO malware is not nearly as bad as it used to be for home users--the primary distributors of malware are now (criminal) businessmen rather than vandals, and it's much more worth the time and effort to target businesses than homes.

273 · 08-19-2017, 07:47 AM

Out of interest (because some games don't run under Linux [at least natively, and I would rather not WINE) I went to microsoft.com and looked at Windows pricing. Are they serious?! £120 for "Home" edition of Windows 10!?
If I could get a license to officially* run a Windows version of my choosing (to download at my convenience) for ~£60 (negotiable) transferable as I see fit there's a slight chance I'd have bought at least one license by now. I could buy a copy of dome versions of Windows on Amazon for between £25 and £120 and, apparently, get "Pro" but as far as I am concerned either they're not legal or M$ have some pretty strange business practices going where they can't sell their own software for less than some random person on Amazon.

*Who knows what a third party has signed to get the version they're selling you?

onebuck · 08-19-2017, 09:33 AM

Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001

After using Linux, would you ever go back to Windows?

I have never left MS Windows. Clients who pay me to help them with their Win problems pay me so why leave it. MS Win support can provide extra pocket change for my new toys or whatever so why leave a golden goose out in the cold.

I do keep versions 10, 8 and 7 installs so I can work on their problems. I have a few clients who still refuse to throw their Win/xp equipment out, even though I do explain the security issues they continue to use Win/xp. Stupid is as stupid does!

Quote:

"Life's tough...It's even tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne

Have fun & enjoy!

jsbjsb001 · 08-19-2017, 10:23 AM

I should start off by saying, I voted 'Hell NO, I would rather eat my own s***!' for the record;

I remember using the Windows 3.x series, a long time ago, as well as Windows 95/98/XP/7. Similar to onebuck, I've got a mate that uses Windows 10 and thinks it's great. And I agree with onebuck, their is just no telling some people.

I just think it's pretty ironic that given Linux was initially built for the desktop, the desktop is the only market Linux doesn't ether have a significant share of and/or own.

Woolie Wool · 08-19-2017, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 273

Out of interest (because some games don't run under Linux [at least natively, and I would rather not WINE) I went to microsoft.com and looked at Windows pricing. Are they serious?! £120 for "Home" edition of Windows 10!?
If I could get a license to officially* run a Windows version of my choosing (to download at my convenience) for ~£60 (negotiable) transferable as I see fit there's a slight chance I'd have bought at least one license by now. I could buy a copy of dome versions of Windows on Amazon for between £25 and £120 and, apparently, get "Pro" but as far as I am concerned either they're not legal or M$ have some pretty strange business practices going where they can't sell their own software for less than some random person on Amazon.

*Who knows what a third party has signed to get the version they're selling you?

You think that's expensive? I think I paid around $200 for a copy of Windows Vista back in the day. Windows' price has gone down and it will probably keep decreasing as Android and iOS siphon off Windows users and protecting market share becomes ever more important.

That said, as a UK customer you're getting ripped off, a digital download of a full unrestricted Windows license in the US from Amazon comes out to £93.60 in British money, and the OEM version (which will lock itself to your motherboard, don't get this version!) is £81.90. Physical copies are a bit more but you can just use either the iso they provide or download one off the Microsoft website and roll your own installation media, just like with Linux distros.

Also the third party guy might be selling his own license he claims not use anymore. I wouldn't recommend buying a used Windows 10 license.

273 · 08-19-2017, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolie Wool

You think that's expensive? I think I paid around $200 for a copy of Windows Vista back in the day. Windows' price has gone down and it will probably keep decreasing as Android and iOS siphon off Windows users and protecting market share becomes ever more important.

I think it's too expensive for what it is. The "Professional" version is around £190 which is about $200 (I think, unless the pound has sunk again).
My main point though was that M$ don't seem to know how much their own OS costs to buy as they sell it for more than third parties. The sheer amount of ignorance and greed that displays is a very good reason not to pay M$ anything, ever.

Woolie Wool · 08-19-2017, 10:51 AM

Those prices are much higher than the US. Windows 10 Pro OEM is $140 and a flash drive with the full version is $181.

Also, there is no such thing as "knowing what your OS costs to buy". Unless you can make special agreements with a retailer, they can sell your product for whatever they like. There's nothing stopping some guy who got six boxes full of Windows OEM packages for whatever reason (aborted mass PC upgrade for a business, recouping losses after a business customer failed to pay for a large order of Windows packages, "fell off the back of a truck", etc.) from selling them off dirt cheap. Microsoft can set their price, but after the first sale they have no control over what happens to their products.

https://www.amazon.com/Windows-Home-...rds=Windows+10 This is Windows 10 Home OEM for $80, and with the Fulfilled by Amazon it has to meet the same quality requirements as products sold directly by Amazon (I would know, my employer does business through Amazon), so it will work or you get a refund. There are non-FBA versions for $55 but I wouldn't go anywhere near those.

273 · 08-19-2017, 11:03 AM

Again, you just proved my point. If I buy a product from a reputable company I can buy direct and pay a decent price because I'm not paying for a third party to rent a store. Here, however, M$ is basically unable to sell their own OS at a competitive price.
Added to that -- how do you know the exact contract the third party you buy a "cheap copy of Windows" from signed up to? Do you know they didn't sign up to a contract which forbids gaming and, thus, so does yours (for example)?
Perhaps it's just me but I'm not about to pay a third party for a contract which may not even be valid. M$ control the exact legal terms here so how on earth can anybody undercut them?

Woolie Wool · 08-19-2017, 11:28 AM

Dude, what "contract"? The EULA is standardized for whatever version of Windows 10 you're buying, and it's displayed in full on the installation screen If you're so paranoid about it, you can be one of the 0.2% of users who actually read the damn thing before clicking "I Agree".

As for "Microsoft is unable to sell their product at a competitive price", differing prices from retailers is part of how capitalism works. These are retail products, Microsoft already sold them to retailers and now the retailer is selling them to end users. Some companies have "MAP" agreements that fix prices with authorized distributors, but if there isn't one or the retailer isn't an official distributor, then they are free to set whatever price they want. In the United States there is the first sale doctrine that explicitly recognizes and protects the right of people to resell products; your country may have a similar ruling or law.

273 · 08-19-2017, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolie Wool

Dude, what "contract"? The EULA is standardized for whatever version of Windows 10 you're buying, and it's displayed in full on the installation screen If you're so paranoid about it, you can be one of the 0.2% of users who actually read the damn thing before clicking "I Agree".

Really, are you serious? You think that a key stolen from a third party has the same legal status, and that a copy of Windows installed using it has the same legal status as a copy sold by M$ directly?
Everything about Windows is a legal contract between Microsoft and any number of entities.
Pop Quiz: How long does "EULA is standardized for whatever version of Windows" support for XP last?

enorbet · 08-19-2017, 05:00 PM

@ Woolie Wool & 273 - My memory must be failing as I don't recall having problems installing networking in early Windows like Win 98/98 Lite but then it has been a very long time since I even wanted a connected Windows box. It was easy to install but a pita to use. I do seem to recall having to enable NetBios or Netbeui for Intranet usage and Samba was rather awful back then. IMHO Win2K was the best OpSys MS ever released but SOHO Desktop support was weak as MS already was moving the masses to a Lease paradigm - "You just do what you want to we let you do (don't mind that man behind the curtain) and keep buying upgrades - you NEED upgrades, repeat after me, you NEED upgrades. Upgrades are good. Upgrades are essential to your survival."

Ummm... NO

Woolie Wool · 08-19-2017, 05:12 PM

There is nothing leased on an XP+ machine. I have never leased a PC in my entire life. And yes, you need upgrades on Windows because 99% of malware targets Windows. MS tried asking nicely but they decided to force the issue with later versions of Windows because idiots decided to keep deferring critical security updates and their machines ended up being used by botnets for criminal activity. The person who neglects to keep an Arch installation up to date and can no longer install new packages/bricks his machine only hurts himself, the person who keeps delaying updates for a Windows box can hurt other people and organizations. You cannot make people learn how to maintain a computer if they don't want to. MS has to serve these people, so forced updates happened. Most people on the MS side grumbled for a few weeks and just sucked it up and learned to save their work before going to bed (updates happen in the middle of the night, usually).

I prefer to take a social perspective on things like this. What you want is less important than what people need on a platform like Windows, Apple, or "newbie distros" that serve the general public as well as computer enthusiasts. I hate Apple, but I would never argue that they make bad products. They just make products that I personally don't like.