The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by Okie the JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses) are a loony & oppressive cult, it is basically a mental prison for the followers, all religions are loony & oppressive cults its just that some are loonier & more oppressive than others

Yeah, and you're going to hell... LOL

Originally Posted by enorbet When the "loony and oppressive cult types" show up at my door I just excuse myself saying, "Sorry. I'm not superstitious." and close the door. When LDS kids show up they are so unoppressive and decent, I generally will spend a few minutes with them. It usually goes something like this.... Mormons: You believe in God, don't you? Me: No, actually I don't. Mormons: So what do you think happens after you die? Me: In all likelihood... nothing I will be aware of. Mormons" Oh Gosh! That sounds dark and depressing! Me: Really? All THIS isn't enough for you? That hardly seems humble and appreciative of this gift you assume God gave you. I'm just grateful to be alive even for a few moments and breathe the air, feel the grass under my feet and taste cold, clear water, and wonder at the real natural miracle I behold. Not so for you? Mormons: ...............ummm, well... if you ever change your mind and feel like you need... umm.. something, you can visit our website or... well, good day sir. Me: Good day indeed. You have my best wishes for you and your loved ones.

I remember hearing a story from someone who "technically died" (I think from memory their heart stopped), and then came back to life. I remember them saying something like "when you die, it's just nothing", as in: no "heaven" or "hell", just "nothing".

Originally Posted by BW-userx I'd guess on average most atheist types are trying to fool either themselves or us, that a higher being all encompassing could not have any conceivable power to create and destroy, or to just allow what beings He created to exercise its own freewill as He does.

Originally Posted by BW-userx I find it puzzling when someone tries to pull of that they are smarter then someone else, yet they still cannot differentiate between much of anything, instead they just lump everything into one pile and call it all the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonVAv6FzW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WwHwLGUiCk

Damn! I really don't want to take BW-userX off of Ignore altogether but this that jsbjsb001 quoted from him ....

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 Quote: Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post I'd guess on average most atheist types are trying to fool either themselves or us, that a higher being all encompassing could not have any conceivable power to create and destroy, or to just allow what beings He created to exercise its own freewill as He does.

... just really gets my gears spinning and it's rather an important issue I think, especially for anyone who loves Peace and Tolerance... or is supposed to.

First off "fool either themselves or others" ? I'm reasonably confidant that people only engage in such deception when they think they have something to gain. An important aspect of "fooling" anyone is that the "fooler" actually knows the truth and chooses to lie about it. Please, someone, do tell this Forum whatever do they think someone would gain by actually believing or even suspecting there is a Divine Creator, yet lying about it to himself or to others? Whatever is there to be gained by that? Furthermore it is my opinion based on experience and considerable contemplation that The Ten Commandments, at least as George Carlin whittles them down, since some are about God and not human behaviour, and others are redundant, to Don't Steal and Don't Murder. They all boil down to those Two as far as moral behaviour goes.

I'd add to that avoid lying at great cost, even to ones enemies when the truth won't put others in harms way. So I already live like that not because some ancient book says so, but because it's just good sense! So what could I possibly gain by lying to myself or others? Religious folks will say I'm in fact refusing to gain Heaven by NOT lying to myself from their POV. It just makes zero sense to be a fooler, but I strongly suspect that deeply religious folk are so convinced of The Creator's existence, they can't even imagine someone genuinely convinced of the opposite, therefore they/we must be just "fooling". That's not how it is, guys and gals. Shoot! I'd LOVE to know there really is some Master Plan, even if I can't understand what that is. Just knowing there is one would be huge, but that seems unknowable at the very least to me.

While on the subject of Master Plan and Understanding I have to ask any of you Believers have you ever considered just how huge in both space and time this Universe really is? and that what we understand of it, amazing as it is that we grasp anything of that vastness, is so infinitesimally minute it makes the Seven Blind Men contemplating the Elephant a no brainer by comparison. They aren't lame. They can walk around it and touch all of it. The elephant is demonstrably "there". We have only been around for a ridiculously short time and in a puny little speck of the "whole ball of wax" and can only barely detect very far and will never "see" past what could be just another relative speck of the whole because the light will never reach us, even if our lives were nearly infinitely long! Now, if we grasp so little of this Universe just how would it even be possible for such beings as we to even begin to comprehend an entity capable of creating it?... (does He/She/It create other Universes? or something different and even more incredible?) and why would such a being crave our puny mindless acceptance and worship? It smacks of human hubris and self-importance to me and seems totally preposterous.

Now, how is that fooling myself or others?

Originally Posted by enorbet Damn! I really don't want to take BW-userX off of Ignore altogether but this that jsbjsb001 quoted from him ....

C'mon now enorbet, you know you wanted to reply to it...

But seriously, I was thinking before about your previous comment, and question comes to mind... if you died and lost all senses, smell, hearing, taste, feeling, etc; how would one even feel pain, or even pleasure? Therefore, and let's say there actually was a "heaven" or "hell"; how would you even experience anything, let alone know if it were good or bad?

It seems like a pretty big flaw in the idea that one would be "rewarded" with going to "heaven" for simply "believing".

Don't you think?

(I do agree with you enorbet on this one BTW )

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 But seriously, I was thinking before about your previous comment, and question comes to mind... if you died and lost all senses, smell, hearing, taste, feeling, etc; how would one even feel pain, or even pleasure? Therefore, and let's say there actually was a "heaven" or "hell"; how would you even experience anything, let alone know if it were good or bad? It seems like a pretty big flaw in the idea that one would be "rewarded" with going to "heaven" for simply "believing".

That's a good argument against people who believe in the survival of disembodied souls. It's actually not valid against orthodox Christians, since we believe in the resurrection of the body. The identity of the "soul" or self with the animated body is pretty standard in Biblical texts. The idea of souls that are separate from bodies and can live apart from them came into Judaism fairly late and was probably borrowed from Zoroastrianism. I know it's common among Christians too but it certainly isn't biblical.

I've noticed before in this thread and elsewhere that unbelievers are often surprisingly ignorant about the religious beliefs they criticise.

Originally Posted by hazel That's a good argument against people who believe in the survival of disembodied souls. It's actually not valid against orthodox Christians, since we believe in the resurrection of the body. The identity of the "soul" or self with the animated body is pretty standard in Biblical texts. The idea of souls that are separate from bodies and can live apart from them came into Judaism fairly late and was probably borrowed from Zoroastrianism. I know it's common among Christians too but it certainly isn't biblical. I've noticed before in this thread and elsewhere that unbelievers are often surprisingly ignorant about the religious beliefs they criticise.

My point was that the body is a physical object, that remains here on Earth once you do pass away - regardless of whether the "next life" exists or not. Your soul isn't your physical body. I won't say your wrong about the "resurrection of the body", and either way, your beliefs are your own, but I can't say that anyone would honestly "know" one way or the other. I was saying what I said from a non-religious POV, not a religious POV.

So I disagree that having a different POV is being "ignorant". At the end of the day, if you can't prove it beyond any doubt, then it's still theory. So in that respect, I'm not sure how anyone can really be "ignorant". Unless maybe you mean "ignorant" of a belief, but that argument could also be made the other way too. And I can say that a "believer" is wilfully "ignorant" of a "non-believer's" POV/beliefs, and/or indeed, is wilfully "ignorant" of the difference between "proven/provable fact" and "theory"...

(I'm not necessarily saying that's you yourself BTW Hazel)

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 So I disagree that having a different POV is being "ignorant". At the end of the day, if you can't prove it beyond any doubt, then it's still theory. So in that respect, I'm not sure how anyone can really be "ignorant". Unless maybe you mean "ignorant" of a belief, but that argument could also be made the other way too. And I can say that a "believer" is wilfully "ignorant" of a "non-believer's" POV/beliefs, and/or indeed, is wilfully "ignorant" of the difference between "proven/provable fact" and "theory"...

You're perfectly entitled to your point of view, and that's not what I meant by "ignorant". What I meant, and I stand by it, is that the POV that you attribute to religious people in general is not necessarily the one they hold. Your original question presupposes the survival of a "soul" apart from any kind of body and with no access to sensory information and you ask (reasonably enough) how anyone can believe in that. Well, maybe you ought to ask a Muslim or a "liberal" Christian that question. It certainly isn't applicable to anyone who uses the Nicene Creed.

And let's not go over the "fact"/"theory" thing again! BW-User has already flogged it to death. A belief is neither a fact nor a theory and shouldn't be confused with either.

...

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ “And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead’ ”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phdbQNY-6U8

Originally Posted by hazel That's a good argument against people who believe in the survival of disembodied souls. It's actually not valid against orthodox Christians, since we believe in the resurrection of the body. The identity of the "soul" or self with the animated body is pretty standard in Biblical texts. The idea of souls that are separate from bodies and can live apart from them came into Judaism fairly late and was probably borrowed from Zoroastrianism. I know it's common among Christians too but it certainly isn't biblical. I've noticed before in this thread and elsewhere that unbelievers are often surprisingly ignorant about the religious beliefs they criticise.

So regarding this "reanimated body" idea, of which I am and was aware but just didn't and don't even begin to grasp, what manner of form is it... actually corporeal? identical? and at what age and condition? young and strong or deathbed weak?.. and how would anyone know? AFAIK no one has ever seen or spoken to one let alone had dinner or a date with one, not to mention figured out any way to test it beyond "My wife was dead and buried and last night she showed up for dinner". Are these bodies supposed to be "business as usual"? Do they need to breathe, eat, sleep and eliminate waste?.. or do they have some new "super powers"?

There are many, many more questions but I find this concept one of the more vibrant examples of wishful "thinking" like "If I cover my eyes, anything I see will just disappear and be gone".

Obviously we don't know the answers to many of these questions. And so what? If a parent says to a child, "We're going to the seaside next week and you're going to love it," it makes no difference if the child (raised exclusively in the city) has no idea right now of what the seaside is like. Time enough to find out when you get there!

But it's certainly not true that no one has seen a "reanimated body" as you choose to call it. Paul gives a whole list of people, mostly by name, who saw Jesus after his resurrection. Most of them were still alive and could be questioned about what they saw. There were 300 on one occasion! I simply don't believe that 300 people could all have the same hallucination at the same time.

Prove it along with Why We Fight War!

Science 'I don't know,' religion 'because mommy's and daddy's told us $o!'

I forget is there a show out there that proves Magic's not real, how many people since the dawn of time have joined in audiences* to help make the rest fool$!

Sure that sounds fun but what if the magician says to the fools, let's go kill in my name or I'll use my magic on you!

Originally Posted by hazel Obviously we don't know the answers to many of these questions. And so what? If a parent says to a child, "We're going to the seaside next week and you're going to love it," it makes no difference if the child (raised exclusively in the city) has no idea right now of what the seaside is like. Time enough to find out when you get there! But it's certainly not true that no one has seen a "reanimated body" as you choose to call it. Paul gives a whole list of people, mostly by name, who saw Jesus after his resurrection. Most of them were still alive and could be questioned about what they saw. There were 300 on one occasion! I simply don't believe that 300 people could all have the same hallucination at the same time.

OK so maybe there has been one but what sort of physical body was or is it? How does a physical body "ascend into heaven" I suppose that may depend on whether or not heaven is a physical place and in what Universe it is allegedly located, but w/e...)... OK if I "go by the book" for the sake of argument then that is still a bit confusing since apparently Jesus could die but being "the Son of God" maybe raising from the dead and/or ascending into heaven is "a walk in the park" but how is it that ordinary human bodies can come back from the dead, the same yet transformed into some reasonable state of health but also with these new found powers?