The All New Linux vs Windows MegaSuperThread

rocket357 · 02-11-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussr_1991

Personally, I think that although Openoffice is a good and cheap subsitiute of M$ Office, the reason why companies wanted to have such requirment like able to use M$ Office, not only they do not want you to meddle their pre-installed software, which they feared that if you just simply install Openoffice, u might just install Firefox, which may not be protected by the internet rules (My school do not allow people to go sites like Youtube,Friendster, but after installing Firefox, we can viewed them like nobody business.). This might end up they feared thay next time when you are unhappy with this company, you just simply plant a virus.

If the company/school has a clue about filtering http traffic, they don't rely on IE to accomplish it. In other words, filtering at the DMZ means you can use whatever browser you want, but if they don't want you looking at youtube, you aren't looking at youtube. If it's set up any other way, then the company/school needs to worry more about hiring competent IT staff and not what browser their users are utilizing.

Yeah, you can always proxy to bypass simple URL filtering. At that point, the DMZ filter needs to start looking at content, not just url. It's better to filter all video streams (and make a few exceptions as necessary) than to fill up a 150GB disk with blacklisted urls. Most schools don't have IT staff that really know what they're doing (apologies to those who work IT for schools...if you know what you're doing then this certainly isn't aimed at you!), and as such you hear about silliness like this ("I installed Firefox and now I can watch youtube!" Umm, how were you able to *install* Firefox if they didn't want you surfing the web freely? Sounds like incompetent IT staff). I guess if security is that relaxed, I'd be worried about students planting viruses, too =)

As for OpenOffice, I agree it lacks some of the more high level advanced features that M$ Office offers, but again I'll agree that hardly anyone needs those features. The big thing with M$ Office is that it's integrated...if you use Internet Explorer, M$ Office, and Outlook, you can exchange information between the three much easier than using third-party programs (though honestly how hard is it to copy and paste?).

schneidz · 02-11-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V!NCENT

C'mon... Teach a kid UNIX and he'll have major skills. He learns what kernels, sripts, commandlines... actually how an entire OS is made...I have seen a lot of John Doe six pack users use OOo to my surprise. They said it was gratis so they used that. I was amazed and asked them if they had any MS Office files issues. Because they are all 17-21 year old students with little MS Office skills they have simple documents that are fully compatible.

what i meant was that the world (the us at least) caters to m$, so maybe it is a good idea to play along a little bit for a financial benefit.

the office suite example is a bad example because they are all pretty much the same. if you know one you know them all (file -> save, edit -> copy, ...).

a better example: i'm an aix system ad, but it helped me get this job knowing how to poke around win-xp a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket357

Around a year ago, my company moved *away* from "our code uses this, meaning you have to use Windows" to a highly modular, abstracted structure that allows the end-user to choose what OS/Office suite/IDE/etc... to use.

i like choice

dracolich · 02-11-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ussr_1991
Personally, I think that although Openoffice is a good and cheap subsitiute of M$ Office, the reason why companies wanted to have such requirment like able to use M$ Office, not only they do not want you to meddle their pre-installed software, which they feared that if you just simply install Openoffice, u might just install Firefox, which may not be protected by the internet rules (My school do not allow people to go sites like Youtube,Friendster, but after installing Firefox, we can viewed them like nobody business.). This might end up they feared thay next time when you are unhappy with this company, you just simply plant a virus.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocket357
Umm, how were you able to *install* Firefox if they didn't want you surfing the web freely?

They could be using the portable versions of OpenOffice and Firefox. I carry both, and many other portable tools, on a flash drive. I could easily *install* one onto a computer by copying the folder to the desktop. They don't touch the Windows system folders, user folders or the registry.

The lab where I work is locked down pretty tight so that users can't access the ASPI(can't rip audio cds or use the burner), software installation is disabled and users can only write to the Desktop and the My Documents folder. But if someone knows about PortableApps.com they can easily get and use OpenOffice, Firefox, Pidgin, VLC and many other things. Although the installer looks like a normal installer all it does is extract the files to the specified location. I've easily found many other free and "portable" tools not part of the PortableApps suite by searching Google: uTorrent, SequoiaView, CPU-Z, Recuva (data recovery). Audiograbber and DeepBurner, too, but they're useless without ASPI.

Quote:

It's better to filter all video streams (and make a few exceptions as necessary)...

I agree totally. One of my IT professors said "It's easier to give privileges than it is to take them away."

schneidz · 02-11-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket357

As for OpenOffice, I agree it lacks some of the more high level advanced features that M$ Office offers, but again I'll agree that hardly anyone needs those features...

i use m$ office (excel) for pivot tables and filtering on columns. i find it more obvious to filter in excel and i haven't tried to do pivot's in open office (why do they call it data pilot ?).

the best feature by far is open office's ability to save in pdf without the need of third-party software.

rocket357 · 02-11-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schneidz

the best feature by far is open office's ability to save in pdf without the need of third-party software.

Agreed, especially considering that openoffice's "native" .doc formats don't always look the same when opened in M$ Office. PDF's avoid that (at least, AFAIK).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dracolich

They could be using the portable versions of OpenOffice and Firefox. I carry both, and many other portable tools, on a flash drive. I could easily *install* one onto a computer by copying the folder to the desktop. They don't touch the Windows system folders, user folders or the registry.

That just reinforces the idea that they need to be filtering at the network level, not the OS level. I certainly wouldn't open my network to the internet and just expect Windows (or whatever OS the school is running) to defend itself...so why expect the OS to defend against "rogue" users? It's much easier to maintain security on a single filtering proxy than 1,000 Windows boxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schneidz

I agree totally. One of my IT professors said "It's easier to give privileges than it is to take them away."

Indeed...default deny (when done right) is the only way to go. Anything else means you'll spend all your time chasing down incidents and writing rules to block them.

ussr_1991 · 02-12-2008, 09:07 AM

I think i need to repeat again. I meant there are people installing firefox on school's D drive (Win XP,dude!) which is a local hard drive. We have C drive, the system one and H drive which is the student profile etc. (My Work space, I am one of the student.)

There are other network drive though, but network drives simply are not ones to meddle with. And I mean I had tried b4 using firefox to access sites like Friendster and Youtube where is impossible on IE. (Because the software related had banned the access!)

Well, so I am trying to say, by denial of freedom of choice of software, the bosses would be assured that what they wouldn't want to see will never happen (At least 99%) and yes- some people simply doesnt like M$ products of a big bloater but it is always the latest technology with it!

So far, can anyone tell me that any technology, from gaming to programming, anything, that is a total new concept in Open source World that does not take ideas, copy from Commerical worlds including Apple Macintosh and / or Microsoft Windows Technologies.

rocket357 · 02-12-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussr_1991

So far, can anyone tell me that any technology, from gaming to programming, anything, that is a total new concept in Open source World that does not take ideas, copy from Commerical worlds including Apple Macintosh and / or Microsoft Windows Technologies.

Two things: Apple is based on Berkeley Unix, and as such, Apple is a direct descendant of "Open Source" (in other words, how could something copy from an OS that is basically a fancy copy itself?). Second, (and I know it's a bit of a cliche) beryl, compiz, and compiz-fusion are, IMHO, more bleeding edge than Aero or Aqua.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, system monitors are much more advanced in Linux than in Windows (can't comment on Apple, but I'd imagine the same holds true). With Conky I can view everything from disk io, individual cpu utilization for SMP/non-SMP rigs, network connections data, etc... Vista has a few gadgets that are sorta cool, but the sheer information available with system monitors in Linux is overwhelming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussr_1991

I think i need to repeat again. I meant there are people installing firefox on school's D drive (Win XP,dude!) which is a local hard drive. We have C drive, the system one and H drive which is the student profile etc. (My Work space, I am one of the student.)

Just reinforces my idea that the IT staff needs an upgrade (you CAN deny user accounts install privileges and access to certain folders/files in WinXP...but you have to actively set it up that way...straight out of the box it'll let anyone do anything).

rkelsen · 02-12-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussr_1991

So far, can anyone tell me that any technology, from gaming to programming, anything, that is a total new concept in Open source World that does not take ideas, copy from Commerical worlds including Apple Macintosh and / or Microsoft Windows Technologies.

Firstly, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of open source games which are not clones of any commercial software. Don't get me wrong, there are many clones and copies, but there are also very many innovative titles. For example, I have never seen anything like Stormbaan Coureur or Chromium BSU in a commercial format. And these are but two examples.

You really need to sit down and read about the history of computer operating systems to learn who stole what from whom. Open your mind and see the real world around you.

rocket357 · 02-12-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkelsen

Stormbaan Coureur

Wow...that looks interesting...

If there's one thing I love about Open Source, it's the fact that there's ALWAYS something new around the corner...sure, the same is true for closed source, but at least if I try a program out on Open Source it doesn't cost me anything or screw up my registry...heh.

Thanks for posting the link, rkelsen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkelsen

You really need to sit down and read about the history of computer operating systems to learn who stole what from whom. Open your mind and see the real world around you.

I agree completely here...there are system calls in Windows that are (gasp!) misspelled just as they are in Unix (which has been around MUCH longer than Windows). Makes one contemplate the "order of theft" that took place, eh?

schneidz · 02-14-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdlinuxwolf

The best way to be safe is to simply refuse to be a victim or to succumb to a lack of discipline either online or in the real world. The least vulnerable people that I know take responsibility for their well being and of those around them. They are citizens, not merely sheeple or civilians. They have the means for their own self reliance or self defense. Using an open source operating system with security in mind is one way. Owning a guard dog or a self defense device and using it with prudence is another way. Having scads of money and power is of secondary importance only. Having a positive attitude is a must.

There are always going to be black hat hackers, psychopaths, vandals, thieves and virus writers. While victims aren't at fault for crimes directed against them, they are at fault to a certain point of being neglectful of their own welfare in certain cases. A good example in the real world was Reginald Denny riding around outdoors in a riot with unlocked doors and his windows rolled down. Another would be using M$ with no security software. Punishing crooks only is a half baked solution because they get the "first shot" at crime. We then have to come up from behind to free ourselves.... over and over again.

Passing the buck to some bureaucrat to do for us what we should do for ourselves is simply not a solution, but part of the problem. Hopefully, in cyberspace, using open source, acting with altruism to improve it ourselves for the common good and encouraging others to do the same is the true legacy of Linux. Passing the buck to M$, or to some other company especially one who is "ethically" and "quality" challenged is not really productive.

remember katrina

V!NCENT · 02-17-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket357

Just reinforces my idea that the IT staff needs an upgrade (you CAN deny user accounts install privileges and access to certain folders/files in WinXP

Yeah unless your school pays a company to set everything up and administer it. That way your WinXP install is just a thin client for a server in god knows where.

If you really want to install something that you really need you can install it in the Windows Temp folder. Users need write-privileges to Temp. But that would only install on one pc and not your account and it would probably be removed in a few days by Windows. I played UT2K4 on my school =D

V!NCENT · 02-17-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussr_1991

So far, can anyone tell me that any technology, from gaming to programming, anything, that is a total new concept in Open source World that does not take ideas, copy from Commerical worlds including Apple Macintosh and / or Microsoft Windows Technologies.

You want a concept that is new (not older than a year) AND is not copying from Apple/Windows? Or just some stuff that is free software and was there before Apple/Windows had it?

In the last case:
3D desktop
Physics in games (Orge3D graphics engine)
Web 2.0 integration in browser (Flock web browser)
RSS feeds
Linux BIOS (new type of BIOS written in C)
Newsgroups
IRC
Package managers (totally new way of downloading and maintaining software)

^These are all I can think of for now :P

mdlinuxwolf · 02-17-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schneidz

remember katrina

It helps to live above sea level, of course.

That is yet another area of public mismanagement as well. In order to improve and maintain levees the right way, one has to attract people wealthy enough to form a tax base robust enough to get it done. In Venice, the population isn't super rich, but not totally broke either. Just because some bureaucrat in a suit says something, he or she isn't going to get my unconditional support but will get a fair hearing. When in doubt, do it yourself. That is what open source is and should be about.

inspiron_Droid · 02-17-2008, 08:44 PM

If there is one factor that annoys me more than any thing it is thwe five to seven year expiration cycle that they Microsoft guys in redmond seem to hae sick fetish of sorts with. THis annoys me because IMHO the best operating system to come from Microsoft is Window XP/Sp 2.

rocket357 · 02-18-2008, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V!NCENT

If you really want to install something that you really need you can install it in the Windows Temp folder. Users need write-privileges to Temp.

Giving general write/execute permissions to the general populace (on any OS/any service/any group/user/etc...) is a bad idea for starters (Intel's 32 bit MMU "bug", anyone?)...but then again, running a network on Windows to support an audience that's notorious for producing fledgling "hackers" (i.e. most school systems) is probably a bad idea, too. (Though honestly the default install of most Linux distro's is not much better...which leads me to believe that sysadmins should educate themselves to what vulnerabilities their platforms have (regardless of platform), and take preventative action).