Sorry, I read some of this thread, but
I don't have time to read the entire thing.
I'm interested in Linux because I hate MS,
I have a real moral problem with them, I hate
how windows is designed as if everyone using
a computer is a simple-minded fool. I don't
need to be told how to do every stupid little
thing, I don't need a wizard to install a printer,
and I don't need a goofy paperclip guy asking
me if I need help typing a letter.

Unfortunately, I am the IT person for a small
business, and from what I have seen 90% of
my users ARE that dumb when it comes to
computers. We have and MVbase accounting
system that runs on Accuterm, and I get calls
all the time from people tell me their computer
"is down" only to find that they minimized the
window and couldn't figure out how to maximize
it.

That aside, the main problem is that none of the
software we NEED to use, runs on Linux, and
as far as I can tell it's difficult to find drivers that
will work with a lot of hardware.

..one quick thing I would like the throw in.. this poll is not based on all linux users.. because there are a lot of users posting that are new to linux that would like to see it get easier..

what about the 44 who say 'ohmygod is this STILL going?'

Its the same at any of these message boards.. it what keeps message boards active..

Many have said it well already so I'll keep my post short...

I too feel that Linux is as user friendly as most M$ products... it's just that you've been using those products for years. Give Linux a good long tearm trial, honestly work at it and you won't go back.

As to doing simple things in Win that you can't do in Lin... I've got the other end of that ugly stick right now. I've got a company laptop (on which I'm typing this message in fact). It is licensed to run Win98 (yeah, I know...That's why I'm dual booting RH). Well, try changing the IP address, or DNS entries, heck just sneese in it's general direction.... What happens? That's right, it's REBOOT TIME!

Each and every time I see a M$ box say "You'll need to reboot for no good reason..." I just have to smile and think to myself, "I'm SO GLAD I made the switch!"

As to the poll, there need to be more options than the 3. I'm not an "Occasional User" but I'm no "Expert" either. I think that the installs are getting better and better with each release. I don't know how they can get much easier. I even got my father-in-law to do an install by himself... if he can do it anyone can do it.

Cheers,

MrKnisely

i dont know
everything u say guys makes sence
all of u
but there are some sertain tho=ings i would like to say
like what is so hard with linux after all if u are just an enduser
with slackware 9.1 the only thing i needed to do to get my pc up and running was
netconfig host domain dhcp;
install nvidia drivers for my video and that was about it
yes after that i compiled a new kernel whick is not wery easy for a newbie BUT it is optional after all
and for installing programs u just type installpkg *.tgz and u are ready
ok things CAN get a little complicated with some stuff
but all u need to do is a little bit of reading and searching on the net and ur good to go

However u might still thing BUT why make my life harder wasting time tweaking every little thing. now go to your Windows whatever version and than go to the internet; get a serious amoutn of popups, viruses, spyware, adware. now what pay some good money for a anti-virus product, whick in most cases dont clean anything, waste your time a little bit (couple of hours) doing diskdefrags and scandisks. and when finaly u understand that your data is lost. REINSTALL.
I dont want to sound corny but when i surf the net in windows xp i feel VIOLATED by all the popups and viruses. none of this is reality in linux so far so just be patient. once u get the main stuff like mounting drives compiling kernel whick is not as scary as it looks u'll love Linux

I agree with most of what you said Killer, except for the above statement. I don't mind doing a little research to figure out how to do or installe something. What I don't like is when I've done the research and followed the instructions it still does not work. I have two examples I'm working on now...

Java. After you install it per Sun's instructions it still doesn't work. After researching the net I found the additional steps you have to do to put the sim link in your plugins directory. After doing that it worked in Mozilla, but Firefox doesn't even launch now. So now after all the research and time and work, I'm worse off than I was before.

imwheel. I have a MS Intellemouse with wheel and side buttons. I found that you have to use imwheel to get the side buttons to work in Redhat 9.0. The side buttons work just fine with Windows, by the way. I can't even get imwheel to install.

When I want to practice problem solving I work on linux, when I want to get something done I still have to go to Windows.

I'm just the oposite... when I want to get something done; I boot Linux. In my profession of computer networking Linux is like a SwissArmy knife. To get even close to the number of tools in Windows that I can get in a default install of RedHat 9 it would take me hours of configuration and I still wouldn't have anything as flexable as my Linux box. One line at a shell I can change the IP address of my workstation or assign subinterface IP addresses. I can run and FTP server from my laptop, tftp server for Cisco configs, WebServer for testing, MRTG for network metering, Snort for intrusion detection, Squid for caching, ipchains for security, Webmin for remote management, etc. Tell me how you can do all that with a M$ system without a serious security hazard or stability issues.

As to your issues with Java, it's probably a simple fix. Have you posted the issue you are having in the applicable form here? I bet you'll get the answer. That's another thing. Where can you help with a M$ problem like you can get here?

That's what Linux is all about, the community.... and giving back.

MrKnisely

You still use ipchains?

I thought security experts would have switched to iptables by now.

Thanks charon79m. No, I haven't posted the problem in the forum here. I've been searching the forums and Google for similar problems, trying to work through the problem myself. I am at least trying to figure it out on my own. It is supposedly a simple install. It simply fails to work.

I do not need to do all of the things you mentioned. I just want my browser to work. That includes working with web pages that contain java applets. IE works properly out of the box. My complaint is that even the simpelest thinks in linux don't work "out of the box". I have since upgraded Mozilla from the version 1.21 that comes with Redhat 9.0 to version 1.6. Well, I at least tried to upgrade it. Once again, didn't work per instructions. I tried both the "installer" and the full install .tar.gz. After typing the command per the instruction on the Mozilla web site it appeared to complete okay. I then installed the sim link to java in the plugins directory (created fresh in new directory. I didn't just copy the old one) and when I launch Mozilla from the new directory that was created for this new version (I don't know why it didn't install over the old one) version 1.21 launches. !?! I just threw up my hands and flipped over to XP and did what I needed to do.

After installing the sim link for java in Foxfire's plugins directory, Foxfire simple fails to launch. It worked fine before. I had been using it for weeks. No error messages. When I try to launch it either by double clicking the icon or executing the file in the console, it simply does nothing.

Still haven't been able to get imwheel to even compile properly. It complains of missing libraries which I have been unable to locate.

I know this is not the forum for asking for help. That's not what I'm doing. I'm simply complaining.

Linux is plenty easy enough for those willing to do a little work. I admit that since I have made the switch, I have spent quite a bit of time figuring things out, but once I got the problem fixed, I am confident I won't be going back a week later to do it all again.

I don't like to read long technical manuals, I tend to use the find or search feature of my browser to quickly find just the tidbit I am looking for, and I have Google as my home page.

But I have learned that Linux rewards patience, and if you spend an hour trying to figure out how to do something, take a break. Skim a couple of manuals , check out Google, or wait for the Help program to load in your Distro. Then come back to the problem a few hours later. Usually you end up finding the solution quickly on your second or third attempt.

Linux requires you not only to think, but to pay attention. Several times I made things more difficult because I just didn't notice a setting or field the first time around.

At times I have been frustrated because something wasn't Windows easy, but I have always been well rewarded for hanging in there and figuring things out myself, or with the help of Google.

Hopefully in the future I can use this forum to ask questions and get answers.

I don't have much time. I work full time, and have a long drive to and from work, but I use what time I have with Linux wisely, and I try to set aside play time (when I play with the settings and figure out how things work), and work time (when I do what I am needing to do, and use things "as is" for now.)

That may be.... It just works in M$, but how does it work? Do you know? Do you have the ability to find out if you wanted?

A milicious coder can exploit the fact that M$ just processes java code. What's better? For some it's for it to work whatever the cost, for me it's worth a little work to know I'm safe.

LOL.... guess some terms are tought to let go of. Actually I use PIX for my security. Seldom do I firewall with linux.

MrKnisely

I know. It's just frustrating when e-v-e-r-y l-i-t-t-l-e t-h-i-n-g has to be researched and tinkered with and re-researched. Hours; days of searching for just the right set of libraries and commands to make something work.

I didn't just get my first computer this year, either. I've been building and configuring and installing and networking them for 15 years. I've only been tinkering with linux for about 8 years.

I search the forums for solutions, I use Google, I read How-to's, man pages and --help instructions. And you know what? Half the time the thing still doesn't work.

I'm to the point with Redhat 9.0 now that so many little things are broken (Mozilla, Firefox, Java, mouse side buttons, imwheel won't compile, I click on a application in the menu and nothing happens) that I'm about ready to just upgrade it to Fedora just in the hopes that that will patch some of the problems. I probably won't though. I will probably migrate all of the old problems into the new system as well as introduce it's own new ones.

Don't get me wrong. I hate to knock Redhat (Didn't have as many problems with SuSE) or linux in general. I love Linux and will never stop using it. I'm just tired of ALWAYS having to fiddle with it to get the simpelest functions to work. I'm not a programmer, I can barely compile a kernel. I don't have time to "fix" every application before I can use it. I just want to use it. It's a tool. When I buy a hammer I don't get a box with an acorn to grow the handle and some ore to fashion the head from. With linux you get a box of ore and are told "learn to forge". I'm a damn carpenter, I don't want to have to forge a hammer every morning.

Okay. I'm finished ranting. I did get a little carried away. I'm not really a carpenter. I meant that figuratively.

Anyway. This is a great forum. I just need to get out of the "ranting section" and into the sections where I can find solutions to my problems instead of just complaining about them here.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Cheers.

I can't believe this thread is still going on.... my god, where is it gonna go?