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Old 06-21-2013, 07:01 PM   #526
jpollard
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I just don't like the mess systemd is. It has become the biggest vulnerability in Fedora (way too many interdependencies - udev, dbus, inetd/xinetd functionality, NetworkManager, the journaling, and systemd. I didn't know about it trying to take over cgroups and VMs as well. Just too many things that could cause cascading failures, and too difficult for administrators to debug.

I just hope the RH customers realize it and complain.

Whatever else may be going on, RH will listen to its customers.
 
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:10 PM   #527
qweasd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
And while I respect Martin Grlin for the programmer and person that he is, and read his blog posts with a smile, I do not think he is right in his latest rant. If you write code which is free, that does not make you invulnerable to criticism and untouchable. True, if you write bad code and let the FLOSS community processes go their natural ways, then the bad code will not get widespread. But if commercial interests come into play (like Poettering getting paid by Redhat to do what he does) the free software movement is side-tracked and bad code can force its way into the wider audience.
Commercial interests? It sounds like your beef is with Red Hat, not with Poettering or Sievers, whoever that is. Poettering is just one man, I seriously doubt there is anything he can do to sidetrack an entire movement. And yes, I believe that any and all criticism of Poettering as a person is counterproductive, and that includes his writing style and the tone of voice. If some users and/or distributions feel the need to adopt systemd, so be it, no one twisted their arm. Let's criticize these distributions based on the technical outcomes of that decision and leave the coders alone.

I can't say I understand how exactly his plan will hijack the kernel and prevent systemd non-users from working with cgroups, and frankly, I don't want to know. The kernel project has a far greater problem than a thousand Poetterings: they bundle and distribute non-free software. This is far more damaging to the Linux ecosystem than everything Poettering has done so far, including pulse (what a piece of *&^% that was). So a criticism directed personally at Linus Torvalds would be OK in my book, as it all goes on under his direct supervision. Poettering, at the very worst, is pushing a substandard replacement for some OS components, substandard from a technical standpoint. I chuckle when I discuss personalities, but I would never criticize them personally just for writing bad code or having too much ambition. Linus, on the other hand, is distributing spyware and backdoors.

I really don't understand you, Alien Bob (although I will continue to use your builds ). You will say bad things about Poettering for how he is "destroying Linux ecosystem", but you will leave M$ alone? With about 10000x damage they've done to EVERY ecosystem out there? Really?
 
Old 06-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #528
the3dfxdude
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Quote:
It took us a while to realize the full extent how awfully unusable
cgroups currently are. The attributes have way more interdependencies
than people might think and it is trivial to create non-sensical
configurations...
Does anybody see a huge irony in this?
 
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:04 PM   #529
Kallaste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qweasd View Post
Commercial interests? It sounds like your beef is with Red Hat, not with Poettering or Sievers, whoever that is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Sievers
 
Old 06-21-2013, 09:49 PM   #530
T3slider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qweasd View Post
And yes, I believe that any and all criticism of Poettering as a person is counterproductive, and that includes his writing style and the tone of voice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qweasd View Post
So a criticism directed personally at Linus Torvalds would be OK in my book, as it all goes on under his direct supervision.
And if all systemd development goes on under Poettering's direct supervision, it is somehow different than the kernel's development and warrants special protections?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qweasd View Post
Poettering, at the very worst, is pushing a substandard replacement for some OS components, substandard from a technical standpoint.
Linus, at the very worst, is pushing a substandard replacement for GNU Hurd.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your post? You can criticize Linus but not Poettering, even though they are both just programmers with some authority over their creations...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qweasd View Post
Linus, on the other hand, is distributing spyware and backdoors.
This is simply libellous...you can safely say that Linus (and the rest of the kernel developers...Linus doesn't 'own' the kernel) are distributing closed source firmware components of variable quality and little oversight, but to state outright that the kernel includes spyware and backdoors through this firmware (without evidence) is disingenuous.

(Note: for the record, I'm not particularly fond of criticizing Linus or Poettering specifically and instead choose to criticize their works...)
 
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:30 PM   #531
san2ban
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Elvis526
You did a good thing, by stopping your work of porting systemd into slackware. True slackers do not need it. We are happy with slackware the way it is.
The world's oldest linux distro that slackware is, shall continue to be like this
Do not feel that you would have done yeoman's service to slackers, by porting systemd into slckware. Slackers do not need it

Follow Pat's advice, tone down. You are not the all knowing one. Others also know something, if not everything
 
Old 06-21-2013, 11:55 PM   #532
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
You know what ? I'm fucking done with this thread filled with idiots.
Do you even understand how much non-sense you are saying ?
This in response to Alien Bob's post looks very much like Justin Bieber complaining about Vladimir Horowitz' limited musical skills.
 
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:08 AM   #533
ponce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Their next attempt at killing functionality for non-systemd users: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ne/011521.html . Forget about using cgroups and LXC containers if your distro does not adopt systemd. And while he tries to "blame, haha" Tejun Heo for this coup, he conveniently forgets to tell us that Tejun is yet another Redhat employee. The trend is obvious.
Yes, he tries to put it as a dependency everywhere, and he just don't give a shit about who's basing his job on these technologies.
Yesterday evening I got mad before dinner reading the same thing, but luckily libvirt's and LXC's developers stepped in saying they still continue to support non-systemd installs.
 
Old 06-22-2013, 01:15 AM   #534
unSpawn
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Indeed this thread has run its course. But since y'all can't seem to get over it and stay away from it I'll close it.
 
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