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Old 07-01-2011, 01:16 PM   #1576
MensaWater
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Don't get me wrong. I've made it clear I don't subscribe to any of the supernatural explanations. For all I know it is the giant space unicorn you proposed. I was simply saying telling people who DO believe one of the supernatural explanations doesn't get you anywhere. You can't "prove" what you believe any more than they can so telling them to broaden their minds without at least acknowledging your own inability to be certain serves no purpose. By acknowledging uncertainty you prevent them from reasonable counter arguments over "closed" minds.

In the end it doesn't matter anyway. They'll simply assume we are simply meat for Satan or one of his analogues.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:17 PM   #1577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Yes, God created a work-in-process, an earth embedded with lots of real dinosaur bones, etc.
You might want to have a word with the folks at Answers in Genesis. They're quite clear that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:22 PM   #1578
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Originally Posted by MensaWater View Post
Don't get me wrong. I've made it clear I don't subscribe to any of the supernatural explanations. For all I know it is the giant space unicorn you proposed. I was simply saying telling people who DO believe one of the supernatural explanations doesn't get you anywhere. You can't "prove" what you believe any more than they can so telling them to broaden their minds without at least acknowledging your own inability to be certain serves no purpose. By acknowledging uncertainty you prevent them from reasonable counter arguments over "closed" minds.

In the end it doesn't matter anyway. They'll simply assume we are simply meat for Satan or one of his analogues.
No, but vocally challenging religious beliefs can reach people who are on the edge or less set in their beliefs. It's not the true believers I'm aiming to reach.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:29 PM   #1579
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people that deny the existence of any gods are typically as hidebound by what they disbelieve as those who profess faith in one of the established religions.
There's nothing wrong with being firmly decided on an issue. The problem originates incidentally. When someone is firmly decided "mistakenly" on an eternal issue, they don't guard against such things as "white lies," in life. Little lies will strike you blind.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:35 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
No, but vocally challenging religious beliefs can reach people who are on the edge or less set in their beliefs.
And what exactly the point in doing so? Do you want to convert people to your belief or something?

Their faith is their decision. Once person selects a position towards religion (be it atheism, agnosticism or a religion), it is not possible to change that person's opinion by arguing - every possible argument can be discarded using various kinds of logical trickery, so arguing will be as much fun as banging your head against the wall. Those who aren't "firm in their belief" will eventually change their faith without your help, as well, so again, "enlightening" them will be a waste of time.

Besides, I'm sure that there are better things to do than trying to change beliefs of random strangers.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:35 PM   #1581
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I've not seen proof enough to make me think there are
I'm completely baffled when people say this. Unless you're a zombie, you live, and see, and breathe. Our electrical impulses explain very well physically, how we "live." But it will never explain our participation/awareness of anything. If our universe were filled with satellites and home to a vast animal kingdom, yet not of these components ever experienced the creation, see, touch, then I would subscribe to Darwin (but then I would not be aware).
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:50 PM   #1582
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And what exactly the point in doing so? Do you want to convert people to your belief or something?

Their faith is their decision. Once person selects a position towards religion (be it atheism, agnosticism or a religion), it is not possible to change that person's opinion by arguing - every possible argument can be discarded using various kinds of logical trickery, so arguing will be as much fun as banging your head against the wall. Those who aren't "firm in their belief" will eventually change their faith without your help, as well, so again, "enlightening" them will be a waste of time.

Besides, I'm sure that there are better things to do than trying to change beliefs of random strangers.
Well, the focus is really on irrational beliefs in general, because they are harmful. Religion would be incidental to the whole gamut of funny ideas, except that it is so popular and has such power. When the religious folks stop claiming the high ground on morality, stop discriminating against homosexuality, stop trying to ban abortions, stop teaching that condom use is immoral, and stop trying to force creationism into schools, when there are no more killings in the name of God, when no woman in the world is stoned to death for adultery, then I will stop.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 01:53 PM   #1583
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I've got to get ready for our trip, so I don't know that I'll be on here again, so I'll talk to you Monday.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:26 PM   #1584
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Food for thought: fundamentally, isn't everything a satellite, or a member of a satellite? From the electron, to the subatomic particles, to the atom itself, and to the galaxies? The sun might be thought of as an atomic bond.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:29 PM   #1585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I'm completely baffled when people say this. Unless you're a zombie, you live, and see, and breathe. Our electrical impulses explain very well physically, how we "live." But it will never explain our participation/awareness of anything. If our universe were filled with satellites and home to a vast animal kingdom, yet not of these components ever experienced the creation, see, touch, then I would subscribe to Darwin (but then I would not be aware).
You see it as "proof" of what you already believe. As for me I see it as something I can't explain and so far haven't found any "believer" of any credo that can. There is far more evidence to support what Darwin theorized than there is to support your bible. Telling someone the bible is the word of God may make sense to you but not to them. If I write a book that says "This is the word of God." then ask you to accept it as such you would call me a blasphemer at best and probably worse. The thing I never understand about Christians is how they tell you everything is a matter of "faith" but then try to "prove" they're right. Either you believe or you don't. No "proof" is necessary if it is a matter of "faith". However, there are many Christians that try to pervert the scientific method to "prove" what they believe is correct.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:31 PM   #1586
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Chain of creation:

God -> Big Bang -> Universe

Science is subordinate to religion.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:42 PM   #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Chain of creation:

God -> Big Bang -> Universe

Science is subordinate to religion.
Giant Unicorn --> God --> Big Bang --> Universe --> Gelatinous ooze --> --> Single cell organisms --> fish --> amphians --> reptiles --> birds & mammals --> monkeys --> people --> people with so much time on their hands they post in this thread.

It appears we're head back towards gelatinous ooze.

Last edited by MensaWater; 07-01-2011 at 03:43 PM.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:45 PM   #1588
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Quote:
God -> Big Bang -> Universe

Science is subordinate to religion.
There is a school of bonafide Christians who believe the universe was created by God, and that the form it took was explosive. Yet, these also understand that God has direct relationship with his creatures, and often makes himself known by revelation, fundamentally Scripture.
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:49 PM   #1589
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Science is subordinate to religion.
Science is not only subordinate to God, but to nature, as one of the great ways to look at nature. Probably only the third best way to look at nature--#1, naturally; #2, artistically
 
Old 07-01-2011, 03:52 PM   #1590
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Nope - you're just plain wrong.
 
  


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