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View Poll Results: Should Pat just drop KDE?
Yes 45 23.56%
No 122 63.87%
Undecided or don't care 24 12.57%
Voters: 191. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-09-2019, 11:19 AM   #61
Poprocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
This is an old debate. I have not changed my opinion.
These days I do not run KDE routinely, but I still use KDE programs, so it needs to stay.
Give Pat a break, a new release needs some shiny new goodies. Easter eggs are a bonus.

The whining about Qt5 gives me a headache. If your workflow is so precious, build it, install it, and compile what needs it. It is not the distribution holding you back, but a failure to engage.
I think most of us have done that for ourselves.

I don't think the issue about the "whining" as you put it - or perhaps pressure from some members of the community would be more accurate - though a bit annoying, granted, is out of a lack of ability for users on this forum to get their workflow where they want it. It's more an issue of the community wanting to see their beloved distribution move forward to 2020 and beyond. That's what's really driving the discussion IMO.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 11:48 AM   #62
allend
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A petulant child stamps it's feet and says "I want it, and I want it now". A responsible parent responds based on the broader consequences. As Pat has said, the question is not "if" but "when".
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:04 PM   #63
montagdude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
A petulant child stamps it's feet and says "I want it, and I want it now". A responsible parent responds based on the broader consequences. As Pat has said, the question is not "if" but "when".
I haven't seen too many people stamping their feet and saying they want it now, outside of a few drive-by posters starting threads ("It's time for a new Slackware release" is one example). My concern with Qt5 has always been about the "if," not the "when." I don't mind building Qt5 from SBo or getting it from Eric for now, but I wouldn't want to keep doing that forever. Now that Pat has come along and basically confirmed that the only question is "when," I'm not concerned anymore.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:14 PM   #64
garpu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
A petulant child stamps it's feet and says "I want it, and I want it now". A responsible parent responds based on the broader consequences. As Pat has said, the question is not "if" but "when".
I've built about 3-4 things with a graphical interface in the last 3 months and all 3 needed Qt5. Obviously I solved the issue myself, because I needed the programs with it. That's hardly petulance, that's "hey, Slackware is going to be in a world of hurt without compatibility with these things."
 
Old 10-09-2019, 12:23 PM   #65
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I think QT 5 should be in the next release of Slackware (maybe alongside QT 4, it is still being used by some applications), but KDE 4 should be dropped and if KDE stays the way it is, maybe Plasma should NOT be included but probably KDE Applications should..
 
Old 10-09-2019, 12:26 PM   #66
Skaendo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
I suspect a good proportion of the "remove it" camp, just want to do so because they believe it to be holding back Qt5 inclusion.
I am part of the remove it camp. I don't use KDE at all. I use Cinnamon, Xfce and FVWM (for the most part, and I play around with e16, e22, LXDE, LXQt and MATE). There is just too much "bundled crap" in KDE for me, and I don't mean "bundled crap" as in packages that can be easily not installed, I mean the crap like (referencing KDE4 here) sweeper, that PITA "Wallet", etc.

And KDE5 looks too much like Winblowz for my taste.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 12:43 PM   #67
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehartman View Post
I think QT 5 should be in the next release of Slackware (maybe alongside QT 4, it is still being used by some applications), but KDE 4 should be dropped and if KDE stays the way it is, maybe Plasma should NOT be included but probably KDE Applications should..
KDE Applications depend on Qt5 (and its dependencies) and on the KDE Frameworks. I.e. you'd have to install most packages anyway if you wanted the Applications.
The size of KDE Plasma packages is 93 MB, the total size (excluding dependencies) of KDE 5 is 970 MB.
There is no reasonable argument that favors inclusion of KDE Applications while at the same time excluding KDE Plasma.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:44 PM   #68
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
A petulant child stamps it's feet and says "I want it, and I want it now". A responsible parent responds based on the broader consequences. As Pat has said, the question is not "if" but "when".
You are not wrong - however I have also been keeping an eye and now finally I have decided to throw my observations in again - primarily the debate about the inclusion of Plasma over KDE4 , and now QT5 coming into the discussion. Where you are incorrect in your assessment is that most Slackers , me included are not necessarily wanting to adopt say QT5 or Plasma right out of the gate - however the other question is - how long does that mindset last for? Meaning - at this point QT5 and Plasma I would consider to be rather mature in their progress at this point - yet Slackware has not switched to them yet; so asking "what is the hold up" , equating that to someone being petulant is; a bit disingenuous; IMO it is a valid observation and question at this point. If you then bring up - well it is not ready for Slackware because this technical issue or that - then thats good enough explanation for me then; but then even that at one point you have to go back and revisit later - something has to give eventually is what I am alluding to. Also if it is a technical issue - how do we as Slackers help Pat & the helpers (Alien, Eric), to get past these technical issues?


Like I stated - now that I know a little more about Plasma and I can remove both that 'desktop' thingie button which you couldn't (easily) in KDE4, and now that I know for a fact you can run without Akonadi - I am interested in KDE again. One other thing that I did not mention either - I also started with KDE3 when I first entered Linux - it was what I used all the time; so that is why I also have an interest in TDE; the more classic KDE. Again I'd like to rename the poll, but I don't feel the need to - but now the better question is; when should KDE4 be dropped in favor of Plasma, but again there is already that debate - the "Is Plasma ready for --Current" thread, which again I have read many times over time - but never actually entered the debate - I was more of a lurker/observer ; and again I am not making another poll.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 10-09-2019 at 12:55 PM.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:46 PM   #69
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaendo View Post
And KDE5 looks too much like Winblowz for my taste.
Apparently you do not use MS Windows?
I have to use Windows 10 (and before that, Windows 7) at work and run KDE Plasma5 at home on desktop and laptop. I can assure you, Plasma5 does in no way look like, or behave like, Windows. Their respective UIX teams may have partly overlapping User Interface Guidelines but their implementations are vastly different.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:04 PM   #70
Poprocks
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It may behave in some respects like Windows 7 (which was a respectable UI as Windows UIs go, IMHO) but nothing at all like Windows 8 or 10 with that horrible "Metro" junk. They rolled it back a bit with 10, but 10 has its own problems...

<rant>
Actually I was secretly a dirty Windows user on my laptop for a couple years. I was using Arch at the time because Slackware (14.1 was the then-stable release) didn't have a new enough kernel for my machine. Then KDE5 was pushed WAY too soon in Arch and there was no way to sanely keep KDE4 (but that's the nature of the beast) and I ended up with a crashy, unstable desktop.

So I thought, well, let's just try Windows for a while -- I hear 10 is better than 8 -- at least my hardware will all work without question (especially my graphics devices which use that horrid Nvidia "Optimus" crap) and I'll be able to play 3D games smoothly.

I used Windows 10 until I just couldn't do it anymore. I'd be in the middle of working, and the auto-updater would pop up and say "Oh btwz, we're gunna reboot your comp in 5 mins, lulz" and I'd click the delay button, panicking, wondering if it would actually work. And then the updates would come and take a million years. And then when the update was applied, the whole UI for postponing updates would change. That was my "eff it, I'm moving back to Linux" moment. (Mind you, I was running Slackware all along on my server and desktop PC, so inb4 all this "you're a traitor" nonsense).

So by then, Slackware 14.2 had been out for a while, but after a couple months I was itching to try the latest and greatest KDE, which by then I'd read had stabilized considerably. So I moved to -current and ktown. So ironically both what drove me away from Linux on my laptop and back to it again was... KDE5.

The beginnings of KDE5 were a bit rocky in retrospect, but honestly it was probably nothing compared to KDE 4.0 and GNOME 3.0. I have to say, they executed the transition about as well as could be done in the circumstances. The combination of KDE4 and KDE5 components for a transitional period worked surprisingly well. Glad they finally nailed all that down though.

If you read the "this week in KDE" development blog, it has become obvious that the focus at this point is on gradual improvement of the desktop and applications, stability improvements and optimizations.
</rant>
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:06 PM   #71
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garpu View Post
Out of curiosity, what's the rationale for not having Qt5 part of slackware the way python3 is part of slackware? (at least current)
We haven't been made aware of one. It is possible to have both QT4 and QT5 installed on a system, but maybe Pat is only wanting to support one. Or just wants to add QT5 when he decides to switch away from QT4.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:14 PM   #72
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaendo View Post
I am part of the remove it camp. I don't use KDE at all. I use Cinnamon, Xfce and FVWM (for the most part, and I play around with e16, e22, LXDE, LXQt and MATE). There is just too much "bundled crap" in KDE for me, and I don't mean "bundled crap" as in packages that can be easily not installed, I mean the crap like (referencing KDE4 here) sweeper, that PITA "Wallet", etc.

And KDE5 looks too much like Winblowz for my taste.
I can easily support anyone who chooses to not install or use any or even all of KDE and it stands to reason since the majority of your usage is GTK based stuff, that you would choose to not install KDE, but I'm not sure i grasp why you would prefer to have it removed from everyone, especially when Eric, an extremely important if not the most important developer next to Patrick states he can't do without several of KDE apps. You'd prefer his work be complicated further?

This is especially puzzling when not only is KDE no cost to you who doesn't use it but your major concerns are Wallet and Sweeper. One click and Wallet is out of the picture forever and Sweeper is so unobtrusive I actually had to web search it despite using KDE as my primary DE for 20 years. I've just never even seen a process for Sweeper or felt it in any way. What's the big deal that you would apparently in effect cut off your nose to spite your face?

Incidentally since my original introduction to anything Linux was emx runtimes for OS/2 which allowed me to substitute Enlightenment for the Presentation Manager I have always had high hopes for Enlightenment. That was seriously amplified when... who was it? Samsung iirc, invested large sums apparently to compete with Android but afaik nothing much ever came of that. Additionally and also IIRC, Enlightenment was flirting with switchable desktop modes where one could go full DE or Tiling WM with a simple toggle. That too apparently never matured. I really wish Enlightenment could fix the few but rather annoying display bugs (they may have since I last checked it out early 2018) and for once produce a fully functional, stable WM/DE I could "settle in" with at the very least as a solid alternative since they really do manage to get both "lean" and "eye candy" a great balance. For example I've always enjoyed a number of sweet features even just in Eterm but afaik they still don't even have real transparency worked out. Like most of "E" that's a small, niggling complaint but it does hold me back as representative of attention to details but I wouldn't want it to be made even more difficult to install and use in Slackware. That would be of no real benefit to me at a considerable cost to others.

So how exactly do you suppose Slackware removing KDE would benefit you that would compensate for the negative impact on the Slackware Community?
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:59 PM   #73
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The thing is, a lot of these desktops are down right fugly out of the box. KDE/Plasma does not have to look like "Windows". If you mean it has common GUI elements like menus and stuff, well, you got me there. KDE does use start menus that are much like Windows (more like 7 I'd say). You can still have a classic KDE menu if you prefer it. If you're not a start menu person, you can set up panel launchers for everything you want. It's not for everyone though. (Personally I like old KDE better... Trinity is what I use. I've heard people say KDE 3 is too much like Windows XP but again, other than common GUI elements like menus and taskbar etc. mine certainly is not)

Is Fluxbox like Windows because it has window titlebars and an x in the top right corner to close them?

Even worse, XFCE looks like "Gnome" out of the box but it can be configured to be awesome, with panels, launchers, tear-off menus etc.

If I lobbied to remove everything in a distro that I don't install or use, there wouldn't be much left for anybody else.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:20 PM   #74
philanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
So how exactly do you suppose Slackware removing KDE would benefit you that would compensate for the negative impact on the Slackware Community?
I think several people consider that the blocking factor for a new Slackware release is this big KDE5+Qt5 thing. They may think that without KDE, it would be easier to issue a release. They may be wrong -- we just don't know.

Now, regarding the negative impact on the Slackware Community, several users have highligthed that 14.2 doesn't work on recent laptops because of the ageing kernel. Some may want to switch to other distros to be able to use their new laptop, potential new users may decide to pass, considering KDE4+Qt4 and the lack of apparent movement, etc. (these arguments have been rehashed to death in other thread)

So yes, too long a release delay may also negatively impact the community.

The short comment by Pat ("not if but when") is already a precious bit of answer, and we all can see how just this has changed the tone in the thread. So I think a bit more info from Pat about what are the major delaying factors would help a lot.
 
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:28 PM   #75
Jeebizz
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Originally Posted by philanc View Post
I think several people consider that the blocking factor for a new Slackware release is this big KDE5+Qt5 thing. They may think that without KDE, it would be easier to issue a release. They may be wrong -- we just don't know.
I will admit that was my initial mindset about this whole poll in the first place - again I would rename the poll if I could (should KDE4 now be dropped for Plasma), but then I would just be rehashing the "should Plasma be included in --Current.".....which......After typing that out... I just did anyways.....dammit, sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by philanc View Post
Now, regarding the negative impact on the Slackware Community, several users have highligthed that 14.2 doesn't work on recent laptops because of the ageing kernel. Some may want to switch to other distros to be able to use their new laptop, potential new users may decide to pass, considering KDE4+Qt4 and the lack of apparent movement, etc. (these arguments have been rehashed to death in other thread)
Quite - as even my aged Toshiba notebook doesn't seem to play well - I can't get an X session started - so I had no choice but go to Devuan , which I did also put Ubuntu Mate on it at one point and worked well. My only gripe on that - is getting the touchscreen fully disabled - I wish I could just disable it in bios because blacklist doesn't always work. If I wanted touch screen, I would have just gotten a fscking tablet; but I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philanc View Post
So yes, too long a release delay may also negatively impact the community.

The short comment by Pat ("not if but when") is already a precious bit of answer, and we all can see how just this has changed the tone in the thread. So I think a bit more info from Pat about what are the major delaying factors would help a lot.
That is the crux of my argument as well; I do like to think of myself as patient and I trust the judgements of Pat as well - but even as patient as I like to consider myself, this release cycle has been, longer than usual.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 10-09-2019 at 02:33 PM.
 
  


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