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Old 05-19-2020, 08:28 AM   #631
teckk
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This will be interesting to watch if this ever comes to pass. I would say that the anti vaxers aren't going to comply. I can see the militia's roaming the streets, preventing the police from coming through.
https://www.wnd.com/2020/05/alan-der...ge-needle-arm/

What strange times we live in, in more ways than one. The term "perfect storm" comes to mind.
https://www.wnd.com/2020/05/will-ame...-2nd-lockdown/

This is what I am referring to. This is what I see possibly resurging if the government actually gets that heavy handed.

American Patriot. (The 1100k stream is about 500MB.)
Code:
https://ga.video.cdn.pbs.org/videos/frontline/ead6f27d-07cb-4fab-9731-e299144e641b/2000057298/hd-16x9-mezzanine-1080p/0nhlsjne_00003510-003-16x9-1080p.m3u8
 
Old 05-19-2020, 07:37 PM   #632
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Sorry Teckk but I think the idea of any sustained forceful vigilante effect is utterly fanciful. A Class Action Suit and a Constitutionality test would be both more effective and less risky. The State would have to provide conclusive proof of several points such as the value of the vaccination, the safety of the vaccination and very likely that each and every potential person is provably vulnerable to whatever is being vaccinated against, not to mention the severity of the "outbreak".
 
Old 05-19-2020, 09:38 PM   #633
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As to variations.

https://www.wrdw.com/content/news/I-...570255221.html

"Dr. Vazquez says the difference is ever-so-slight, but he believes it could be partly responsible for the East Coast struggling a bit more. "

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0409085644.htm

"The 'C' variant is the major European type, found in early patients from France, Italy, Sweden and England. It is absent from the study's Chinese mainland sample, but seen in Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea."
Very convenient that.

The virus isn't deadly to the vast majority of people. Why waste time at the first stages trying to protect those who don't need it yet?? If there is a solution give to those that have some chance to live a while.

Ann Glenn wife of late Astronaut John Glenn dies from Covid complications in a nursing home. She was 100 years old. Should she have been on the first list to get any sort of cure? Doctors have to play God almost every day. It's rather common to let a very weak very old person go in a way that is less painful.

Last edited by jefro; 05-19-2020 at 09:53 PM.
 
Old 05-20-2020, 04:25 AM   #634
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Ann Glenn wife of late Astronaut John Glenn dies from Covid complications in a nursing home. She was 100 years old. Should she have been on the first list to get any sort of cure? Doctors have to play God almost every day. It's rather common to let a very weak very old person go in a way that is less painful.
At last some common sense! I will be 75 this summer so you might expect me to be on the side of the oldies, but the truth is I would much rather be dead than demented. And most of the people in care homes do in fact have dementia; that's why their relatives were forced to put them there. When I was growing up, doctors called pneumonia "the old man's friend" and no one would have dreamed of putting an old person in that condition on a life support system.

I feel increasingly uneasy about the way in which the economic future of a whole generation of young people is being sacrificed to keep old people like me alive. Don't get me wrong! I enjoy my life, and I'm certainly not demented yet. I completed my first successful cairo drawing program yesterday. But I don't honestly think I'm worth that much.
 
Old 05-20-2020, 06:44 AM   #635
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
The virus isn't deadly to the vast majority of people. Why waste time at the first stages trying to protect those who don't need it yet??
If you mean, why force younger people to isolate even though it isn't that deadly to them, I think the main rationale was that if you just let it spread the hospital system could get overwhelmed leading to a higher death rate, even for younger people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I will be 75 this summer[...]
I feel increasingly uneasy about the way in which the economic future of a whole generation of young people is being sacrificed to keep old people like me alive. Don't get me wrong! I enjoy my life, and I'm certainly not demented yet. I completed my first successful cairo drawing program yesterday. But I don't honestly think I'm worth that much.
Hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life says Australia the value of life at $182,000 per year (didn't see a number for UK, but I guess any western country should be roughly equivalent. Unfortunately, I can't tell if they mean Australian dollars or US dollars).

If I read https://www.lifetable.de/data/GBR/GB...0162018CU1.pdf correctly, a 75 year old British woman is expected to live another 13 years on average, which puts your life at about $2,365,000. So if someone asks how you're feeling you should answer "I feel like two million bucks!"
 
Old 05-20-2020, 07:25 AM   #636
teckk
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Inside Italy's covid war
Code:
https://ga.video.cdn.pbs.org/videos/frontline/0f425fbe-0aa4-49d4-b748-bde7e108910e/2000176684/hd-16x9-mezzanine-1080p/00003719_v02-hls-16x9-1080p.m3u8
Influenza 1918
Code:
https://ga.video.cdn.pbs.org/videos/american-experience/0c30b41c-b205-4012-9451-70e735a75cc0/2000023762/hd-16x9-mezzanine-1080p/3hjby9y9_amex1005_r-16x9-1080p.m3u8
 
Old 05-26-2020, 02:31 PM   #637
teckk
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We crossed a milestone today. 100,000 dead in the U.S.

Another 150,000+ in Europe.

Who knows what is really happening in Russia, large country, lots of poor people.

Brazil is quite bad.

Last edited by teckk; 05-26-2020 at 02:32 PM.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 03:10 PM   #638
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
Brazil is quite bad.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN2321DU
 
Old 05-26-2020, 05:52 PM   #639
jefro
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"But I don't honestly think I'm worth that much."
I'd say every day is as valuable to each of us.

"Why waste time at the first stages trying to protect those who don't need it yet?"
No, I mean protect those vulnerable. The old and pre-existing condition patients.
Spending money on the vast majority of those under 40 might be money wasted.

Who cares about anti-vaxers? If it rains outside and you want to use an umbrella then fine. What does it matter if others want to get wet?

I do have faith that there is a more simple, homeopathic remedy that would solve most of this. (As yet, no clear proof) I've seen a lot of "scientific" truths that later turn out to be wrong. I was on the blunt end of a medical breakthrough that turned out badly.

Last edited by jefro; 05-26-2020 at 05:55 PM.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 06:26 PM   #640
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
...Who cares about anti-vaxers? If it rains outside and you want to use an umbrella then fine. What does it matter if others want to get wet?...
Everybody should care. Because every anti-vaxxer is a brake on attaining a sensible level of herd immunity.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 07:19 PM   #641
jefro
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Ummm, you don't need herd immunity if you took the vaccine now would you?

Herd immunity is a notion that if 60-80% of a population is immune to some infection then it might die off. Not proven. Only a theory.

Last edited by jefro; 05-26-2020 at 07:20 PM.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 07:30 PM   #642
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Ummm, you don't need herd immunity if you took the vaccine now would you?...
Getting vaccinated reduces an individual's chances of getting infected - there are no guarantees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Herd immunity is a notion that if 60-80% of a population is immune to some infection then it might die off. Not proven. Only a theory.
The percentage of "immune" individuals in a population needed for effective herd immunity depends on how easily the infection is transmitted. It's a way of minimising the morbitiy/mortality rates, not a way of eliminating the illness (unless, of course, 100% of the population was effectively immune).

Herd immunity is also one of the best ways of protecting the individuals who can't get vaccinated.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 08:30 PM   #643
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
"But I don't honestly think I'm worth that much."
I'd say every day is as valuable to each of us.

"Why waste time at the first stages trying to protect those who don't need it yet?"
No, I mean protect those vulnerable. The old and pre-existing condition patients.
Spending money on the vast majority of those under 40 might be money wasted.

Who cares about anti-vaxers? If it rains outside and you want to use an umbrella then fine. What does it matter if others want to get wet?

I do have faith that there is a more simple, homeopathic remedy that would solve most of this. (As yet, no clear proof) I've seen a lot of "scientific" truths that later turn out to be wrong. I was on the blunt end of a medical breakthrough that turned out badly.
I really do feel for you that you've had a medical procedure go badly for you, and it isn't all that uncommon depending on the type of damage/ailment. There are certain types of damage that are readily visible and understandable like broken limbs and the history of trial and error as well as scientific understanding of biological processes make those no-brainers and utterly reliable. A great deal of medical knowledge and experience comes from battle so catastrophic damage repair is quite solid.

On the flip side we are only in the past few years beginning to get a handle on how important the "gut biome" is to all manner of health related conditions including mental health. That said one has only to look at the massive drop in death rates among the likes of childbirth, cancer, hepatitus, etc etc etc etc to see thatwe have advanced fantastically in many areas of medicine. Science is heavily involved but Medical is referred to as a Practice (not a Science) for a valid reason. Much is still guesswork.

However, and I'll try to put this delicately, homeopathy is worse than snake oil. At least snake oil often got people drunk! Homeopathu is the most blatant scam I've ever heard of.

Here's an explanation in plain words from Wikipedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia _Homeopathy
Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made using homeopathic dilution. In this process, a chosen substance is repeatedly and thoroughly diluted. The final product is chemically indistinguishable from the diluent, which is usually either distilled water, ethanol or sugar; often, not even a single molecule of the original substance can be expected to remain in the product.[6] Between the dilution iterations homeopaths practice hitting and/or violently shaking the product, and claim that it makes the diluent remember the original substance after its removal. Practitioners claim that such preparations, upon oral intake, can treat or cure disease.
It's water, ethanol, or sugar, the chosen dilutent(s) and that's all. Pretty ingenious scam, eh?
 
Old 05-27-2020, 04:38 AM   #644
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
"I've seen a lot of "scientific" truths that later turn out to be wrong.
Science is a process of increasing knowledge.

No scientist of integrity will claim to know the infallible truth, they can only say what current evidence supports (and what the strength of that evidence is), and will point out that this can and does change as more evidence is gathered.



Quote:
No, I mean protect those vulnerable. The old and pre-existing condition patients.
Spending money on the vast majority of those under 40 might be money wasted.

Who cares about anti-vaxers? If it rains outside and you want to use an umbrella then fine. What does it matter if others want to get wet?
Because not everyone has arms to hold their own umbrella.

Some medicines work great for the average person, but conflict with other treatments, especially those taken by people with pre-existing conditions.

Preventing the average person from potentially being a carrier helps protects those people who can't take a vaccine.

 
Old 05-28-2020, 05:24 AM   #645
Geist
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Originally Posted by fido_dogstoyevsky View Post
Everybody should care. Because every anti-vaxxer is a brake on attaining a sensible level of herd immunity.
Cramming yourselves by the hundreds into mass transportation so you can do some task in a crammed together environment is the brake on that.

That's why we're social distancing, practicing good handwashing hygiene etc.
Everyone was an anti vaxxxxxxer when Rona that Ronin raised her rump.

The vast majority of humanity in history was anti vaxxxXXXxxXXXXxxxx because they weren't any vaccinations, and humanity still made it to the age of "huh, guess this ailment is not caused by demons after all O_O there are little bastards in the WATER ahhh".

I could be an incarnation of Nurgle, as long as I didn't do anything crazy to infect others, I'd be as benign as that rabbit over there who has a mutation of the sohpe papilloma virus in it that would give you HORRIBLE crotch lesions...but it's all the way over there and look it just died without ever coming close to you. Huzzah.

Yet, you were not vaccinated against the rabbit rash.
Etc.

Vaccination worship is chapping my ass as much as 'science and rationality' worship these days and I have put it half way on my agenda to smash that crap, too.
Rationality is not a panacea, rationality was once to put leeches onto everything and treat hysterical women with a hardcore, doctor mandated vibe check, if you get my drift.

I'm also sick of calling everything wholesale evil if it goes against some 'established public opinion', when I consider 'fake good' to be much more damaging.
Why?
People, even dumb ones (unless they're perhaps legit mentally ill) can recognize that doing obviously hurtful or lethal things to others is a big deal.
Some drooler can still understand that that boomstick over there can make ma and pa not move so good no more if he doesn't treat it with respect.
Whereas you might be able to convince someone to keep pouring some substance into a river, telling them it will make fish grow, or algae more manageable, and meanwhile a village way way way down the river gets poisoned by it, or some of their flora or fauna is different and gets destroyed by this substance that slowly made its way down there
And they do't know WTF is happening and the people who pour it also don't know WTF is happening. etc.

It's tiring to me, to say the least.

P.S.:
That river example.

It's an allegory for life, where all it takes is some scientist in some period of time finding something revolutionary, that makes things thrive at first glance but then might turn out really bad later.

Now, imagine being part of the upstream village which has prospered, and finally, after 40 years or so, and two additional generations, they find out that you caused all that stuff.
But if you stop doing it now, you won't be able to feed everyone.

This creates more problems than one might think. And I personally believe agriculture and co are more responsible for 'evil' things like colonization and co than guns or 'intrinsically evil human nature'.

It also works for computing, hence governments and co still using ancient stuff.
Back then it was revolutionary, so they installed it and became dependent on it, even though now it is more negative than positive.

Therefore I am a proponent of prudence now, more focused on essential human nature and direct physical effects vs bending the knee to opinions and fancies (yes I realize the irony in that one, on a forum)
But in other words, I rather live a more primitive life than a bubblegum and feces life built on fanciful ideas that seemed good at the moment.
And, yes, this includes things like 'social constructs', including things like language, where I think we should keep our finger off the "add to dictionary" trigger for every single 'change in an evolving system like language' because if you bring that kind of argument, evolution, then give it some breathing room to let the duds and failures die out before codifying them in dictionary and grammar books.

Why? Because that might have started the notion of "lol language is totally morphable bro! stop getting your panties in a knot" in the first place.
Possibly muddling up structure, logic and perhaps even beauty of all that a language might have, turning it into a seemingly helter skelter, capricious pile of garbage that makes foreigners weep when they try to learn it.

Last edited by Geist; 05-28-2020 at 06:47 AM.
 
  


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