The Faith & Religion mega Thread

I guess I'll just "take the easy way out" here. I don't expect any of these very(!) ancient stories to be literally true ... especially considering the paths by which they came to our attention: oral histories passed from father to son by illiterate peoples, maybe inscribed clay tablets, who knows.

And, at the same time, I have no quarrel with anyone who chooses to think differently. Because I fully understand that I am no more entitled to "be correct" than he or she is. The simple passage of time – many centuries of it now – has necessarily taken its toll. I could be "utterly and completely wrong," and never know it.

Also relevant: "Do not sin against your brother." Indeed, the concept that you actually can. So, I will readily "concede the fight" rather than ever try to "win it." I will, instead, set down the "fight" and agree that it need not ever be "won."

I've never searched the source as I imagine this is common in many cultures but a Sicilian acquaintance told me it was "an old Sicilian proverb" and I have no reason to doubt it since it really doesn't matter where he got it, how old it is, or even if it was solely or originally from Sicly. It only matters whether or not there is any true meaning and validity in the proverb. The proverb is ....

Originally Posted by SicilianAnecdote Only a true friend will tell you when your face is dirty

I think that is demonstrably true and speaks to intention and defines the difference between hateful conflict and loving conflict. Your true friend isn't telling you your face is dirty because he wants to insult or defame you. He is concerned for your welfare and is expressing a level of trust and hopefully a mutual understanding of whom each other is, and confidence that you will trust enough to not be offended and will wash his face so he doesn't appear shabby or offer an explanation as to why your face isn't dirty but just affected by some temporary condition that will be solved or will solve itself.

So I don't see how alerting another to a belief that seems to defy evidence, is based on obvious superstition, ego, and agenda can be considered sinning against one's brother unless you plan to take some negative action if he rejects your "help". Even if you are so egotistical you arrogantly view such situations as "Pearls Before Swine", as long as you don't hurt the supposed swine, the bottom line is all you did was offer information and left them with the dignity to evaluate for themselves, especially if you made your intentions clear. Intellectual conflict doesn't have to be viewed as warfare with winners and losers. It's exactly why being an ambassador has less negative complications than being a General or a foot soldier. The only possible complication confronting an ambassador is whether or not one is honest and genuine rather than equivocating.

Interesting comments.

You are indeed correct, hazel, about Cain building a city. Touché. I can't imagine them building one of our cities, so I take it they had a village.

Really, I'm left wondering why the other two of you (sundialsvcs & enorbet) hang out at all on a Faith & Religion thread at all. Why are you here, seeing as you have basically no faith, and no religion? Oh I get it that inspired works have certain literary merit, and deserve a place on the shelf between Aesop's fables and the siege of Troy, or some other legend.

Originally Posted by BSD Fortunes A Legend is a myth that has aquired the dignity of age

Sundialsvcs, you think the early accounts are legends. Try this thought experiment: Let's put you in God's place. You designed the earth, built these intelligent life forms with personalities and an empty memory, and start them in this prepared place. They have loads of questions, as all their children will have. Some written account of your work would be a handy reference work. If you didn't introduce yourself, they could rightly ask "Where were you when we needed answers? You made us? Prove it!"

But instead of a written account, you're saying give them myths(they're not old enough yet to be legends), basically nonsense. Admittedly they don't have to believe your nonsense if they don't want to. Why?

I can't speak for sundialsvcs, especially since I consider him to be at least a Deist if not actually a Theist, but those are just 2 of 5 options in OP's poll categories for this thread. I am in just 1 category, atheist, but I accept spirituality and mystery as a part of human consciousness in how we perceive reality and some atheists are stricter than I am and consider those things trivial or just misguided or wrong. Not only do the 5 categories explain "why we hang out here at all" but what this thread is actually about and it is NOT a pulpit whether you perceive it as such or not.

Sundialsvcs has rightly, and gently I should add, mentioned that you are "always certain" and it makes me wonder if you, being a self-professed JW, are "anointed". Are you?

Originally Posted by enorbet if you, being a self-professed JW, are "anointed". Are you?

No, and never considered myself such. Sundialsvcs has (rightly imho) pointed out that conflict isn't necessarily welcome, and although I brought this topic up, I don't think I've started any.

There is actually very little difference between anointed ones and other JWs. They certainly do not consider themselves better or superior to other Witnesses. Occasionally you notice their priorities or their hope is different, that's all.

What you say about mystery in thought provoking. I would divide mysteries into two

• Knowledge or understanding we don't have.
• Not knowledge

The first is self explanatory. Scientists would hate using 'mystery' with that understanding, since in their minds, it probably 'lets a divine foot in the door.' "The inflation theory is a mystery." Can you imagine the howls of protest? Nobody knows what caused or stopped inflation, but calling it a mystery would certainly provoke a knee-jerk reaction.

The second would include religious mysteries, which usually are contradictions that are asserted to be true.

Spirituality is a part of all of us that haven't repressed it. It should lead us to God. Today, it is certainly under attack.

In my view "Knowledge or understanding we don't have" is an example of a mystery and scientists not only don't "howl in protest", it's a huge attraction because such unknowns are the most challenging, the most interesting, and the most rewarding. Example: Gravity has always been a mystery that has been chipped away over centuries and may well go on for a few more yet it is one of the very most attractive fields for study since it is so elemental and important to how the Universe works.

"Not knowledge" is barely worth speculation since the odds against any answer are so slim, or possibly nonexistent and often have little bearing on anything that matters, even if qualified by "yet". Example: I haven't wasted a single moment considering what Unicorns might like to eat, and I doubt any educated, sane person has either, with the possible exception of Fantasy authors.

Perhaps I am mistaken about The Anointed. I was under the impression that they expect to "be raptured" and sit in a position of elite authority and grace while others "are on bone detail"... that is excepting the condemned and tortured millions. Furthermore the only defining characteristic, the "acid test" if you will, at least according to Stephen Lett (1 of 8 elite governors of JW) is simply complete lack of any question or doubt. Basically if you have any doubts you are Anointed, you aren't... you just know. In my view that certainly qualifies as "not knowledge" and is prima facia evidence of a bent toward self delusion. To be clear I'm not knocking the spirituality of the followers but I find the leaders highly suspect, not to mention corrupt and condescending. It's about Power and self-aggrandizement (and some sort of torture porn), not Spirituality, for those individuals.

Originally Posted by business_kid Knowledge or understanding we don't have. Not knowledge The first is self explanatory. Scientists would hate using 'mystery' with that understanding, since in their minds, it probably 'lets a divine foot in the door.' "The inflation theory is a mystery." Can you imagine the howls of protest? Nobody knows what caused or stopped inflation, but calling it a mystery would certainly provoke a knee-jerk reaction.

Here's an article about inflation which has "mystery" in the title: The mystery of how big our Universe really is. A scientist quoted in the article doesn't endorse the word "mystery", but it's pretty far from "howls of protest":

Originally Posted by Rachael Beaton From my perspective as a scientist, this feels more like putting together a puzzle than being inside of an Agatha Christie style mystery.

Originally Posted by enorbet To be clear I'm not knocking the spirituality of the followers but I find the leaders highly suspect, not to mention corrupt and condescending. It's about Power and self-aggrandizement (and some sort of torture porn), not Spirituality, for those individuals.

I won't pursue this. The governors (as you call them) are not elite. They are not on the governing body for life. At least one was removed, & later disfellowshipped. They get the same (meagre) allowance in HQ as newly entered folks doing menial tasks. They hold no titles; nobody kisses their rings; they have no special garb, etc. Nobody bows or scrapes or even defers to them. Quite a bit different from today's Christian churches! They are extremely humble people - I have met some over the years, and know many who are/were intimately aquainted. I have yet to hear of one even staying in a hotel, when there's a spare bed in the local facility.

You praise the followers as spiritual. But the governing body are appointed from the spiritual followers. Your comments about the leaders could have been copied & pasted from a number of anti-witness websites or forums. Were they? Your negative comments above are 100% untrue rumour & gossip. How would you know, one way or the other? The 3000+ members of HQ leave, or get reassigned, and if any of what you said was true, I would know, and I would acknowledge it. Don't google your way around JWs. You'll get totally the wrong idea.

I simply watched a Stephen Lett speech video who explained what "Anointed" means, among other issues.

That was doubtless for members, not the general public. It's a regular question among newish members, not the general public.

Originally Posted by business_kid That was doubtless for members, not the general public. It's a regular question among newish members, not the general public.

Isn't that one of the defining characteristics of elites? Inner Circles and all that? It certainly defies transparency.

Not really.

As far as Bible understanding goes, you don't have it and don't believe me anyhow even if I tell you simple Biblical things. How can I hope to explain God's calling of individuals to someone who doesn't believe in God? It's got absolutely nothing to do with eliteism. And why should I try to explain, when all I would get is negative jibes? The wise words of Jesus Christ apply. To understand this simple thing, you need to understand a few things which you probably don't, namely:

1. Pigs, or swine were unclean animals under the Mosaic Law, so there would be no reason for an Israelite to keep them.
2. "What is holy" referred to the portion of a sacrificed animal for consumption by the family of the one who offered it.
3. Dogs are used in Scripture as a symbol for those who do not appreciate spiritual things.

@business_kid: I'm not sure that I would agree with your assertion in #3 about "dogs." There are plenty of references to canines which have nothing to do with the Book of Revelation. Your first two points might be valid observations about Judaism, but I would consider your third point unrelated to the other two.

Also –*please – let's just continue to be very careful "As far as Bible understanding goes, you don't have it?" Be careful here. "Simple Biblical things?" In the day, it was superficially "food sacrificed to idols," but the true admonition (IMHO) was not to claim too strongly that you are "right." Maybe you are, and maybe you aren't, and maybe that's never the point. How would you feel if these words were directed at you? Maybe better to have never spoken at all.

Thank you, I suppose, sundialsvcs, for being your usual genteel self working for civility but no worries... I'm not offended. From my POV it's only natural that business_kid concludes I don't have Bible understanding since what understanding I have is very different from his and business_kid appears to think his way is THE way.

I don't understand the inclusion of the 3 points and I don't just disagree with point 3. It is my understanding that over a period of 100 years or so some parts of the Jewish faith raised swine. The practice went in and out of favor more than once before becoming canon and that's not only known from written accounts but from archaeology. That doesn't mean I don' comprehend "Pearls before swine". It's fairly universal. However none of that from my POV has anything to do with Inner Circle elitism of the Chosen 140,000. The only connection I gather is I'm well outside of those circles and that is true and I'm content it is so.

@enorbet: I am frankly completely unaccepting of any of the many various philosophies which: "put us above nor behind our fellow men, based on criteria that 'our fellow men' hold."

That we – based upon the judgments of our fellow men – are Perls, or Swine. That we are 'raptured,' or not. That we are among the '140,000' among literally trillions (by now ...) of "potential Souls To Be Saved."

Instead: "Finally, Abraham said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak once more. Suppose ten are found there?” And He answered, “On account of the ten, I will not destroy it.”

Frankly, anytime that I find "God" being invoked as having made "very human" judgments, especially wrathful ones, I become healthily suspicious.

That's frankly why I don't think that Revelation should have been included in the canon. It was controversial at the time. The "God" in that book is often a sadist, and "the righteous" are willing participants. There is no "merciful" in those pages – no one that would spare His judgment for the sake of ten. There is only a brute who seems to delight in destroying vast numbers of people who, of course, by definition cannot fight back against a god.

@business_kid: This comment is not addressed to you.