The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by reed9 Originally Posted by SigTerm I'm going to give up on this thread, otherwise I'll surely turn into some kind of total anti-religious agnostic misanthrope. If that would be the end result, I encourage you to stay in the thread!

Key word here: misanthrope. Maybe I'm just too nice (okay, IRL; I know I haven't exactly been polite here in this thread ), but that seems to me to be a rather rude and hurtful way of going about the whole religion thing. IMO the only time someone deserves to be insulted for their religion/faith/spirituality is if they take it to gross extremes and are completely unwilling to open their minds to any other way of thinking.

To each their own, though; I'm not forcing you to change your attitude towards religious people, I'm just stating my opinion.

Originally Posted by SL00b you think that constitutes all that can be done to search for life???

I think it constitutes fiscal irresponsibility.

Originally Posted by SL00b Are you really that ignorant of the difficulties surrounding intergalactic travel???

Yes. And if I were to give more attention to astronomy it would be to search for unknown minerals, not "intergalactic life."

Originally Posted by SL00b you disregard all of this information completely, and embrace the concept of a human soul, which one should be able to find right here on Earth, yet zero evidence of its existence has been found.

Actually, the human soul is the easiest thing to prove, but you can only prove it to yourself. You know that you exist because you have sensation. Yet you can't prove to me that you have sensation.

Also, you can't even prove to anyone, including yourself, that what you see exists, except that you have sensation of it. Therefore, sensation--that is, life--supercedes matter.

Originally Posted by reed9 You should apply this principle when looking at scientific issues rather than making claims without the prerequisite understanding of the science.

I'm terribly sorry if I insulted you in any way, as suggested by your remark.
And I understand science well enough to see that your argument above is far from being unusual in a scientific dispute. It has even been far worse than that, when folks would even hit one another with huge volumes or even their fists in the heat of a scientific discussion.

Apart from that, it would be interesting to hear the reasons and proofs to support one's scientific theory. But one mustn't expect that such proofs will be accepted without some criticism. You see, I have some prerequisite understanding of science .

Originally Posted by SL00b Evidence from a non-theological source, please.

C'mon, who has ever cared about the details of Jewish life, unless it be those studying the Bible?

Besides, the issue in question doesn't alter in any way the effectiveness and wisdom of the council found in the Bible.

Originally Posted by bluegospel Actually, the human soul is the easiest thing to prove, but you can only prove it to yourself. You know that you exist because you have sensation. Yet you can't prove to me that you have sensation. Also, you can't even prove to anyone, including yourself, that what you see exists, except that you have sensation of it. Therefore, sensation--that is, life--supercedes matter.

If you're referring to subjectivity and the sense of self, then it has nothing to do with some immaterial "soul" or "spirit". What's occurring is that your brain has only itself and its perceptions to refer to (i.e. its past experiences), so it's creating the illusion that it's a unique, discrete entity that is somehow "above" the rest of the universe. This is how the illusion of free will is generated as well; we perceive that we are somehow "above" causality and are consciously willing our acts independent of it, even though this is far from the case.

Originally Posted by bluegospel God created a work-in-process: very real, very ancient minerals, already aged the first day they were created--dinosaur bones, etc.

He did all that with what purpose exactly, if you don't mind my asking?

Originally Posted by MrCode If you're referring to subjectivity and the sense of self, then it has nothing to do with some immaterial "soul" or "spirit". What's occurring is that your brain has only itself and its perceptions to refer to (i.e. its past experiences), so it's creating the illusion that it's a unique, discrete entity that is somehow "above" the rest of the universe. This is how the illusion of free will is generated as well; we perceive that we are somehow "above" causality and are consciously willing our acts independent of it, even though this is far from the case.

With all due respect, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you are really a living being, then you also experience being a living being. A rock, which is purely matter, probably doesn't experience anything. You do. Your brain, with all its chemicals and electric impulses--all this is matter. Humans might someday create a very life-like robot whose processing mechanics simulate the human brain. Yet we'll never invent a robot that can experience the human or any animal-like experience.

In other words, the electric impulses only prove mechanics of life. Try proving the experience--how we can have any sensation. By science you can explain how electricity can initiate movement of metals and second causes--robotics, but never human sensation--the human soul. Metals in motion have neither sensation nor soul. Yet we're accountable to God for what we do with our souls.

---------- Post added 08-25-11 at 04:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by kostya He did all that with what purpose exactly, if you don't mind my asking?

Art

Well there are so many suggestions, assumptions and possible explanations spring from this brief answer of yours that I'm afraid of tiring you out with these. Besides, I can read.
So is there any web site where I could find some basics of this remarkable teaching? I've heard of it but never read anything. Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by kostya Well there are so many suggestions, assumptions and possible explanations spring from this brief answer of yours that I'm afraid of tiring you out with these. Besides, I can read. So is there any web site where I could find some basics of this remarkable teaching? I've heard of it but never read anything. Thanks in advance.

Thanks for your sincerity. Two primarily in my mind right now: biblegateway.com & intouch.org check out the audio archives of the latter. Also, InTouch puts out an absolutely free monthly magazine.

If you like "hard reads" (I couldn't do it), read "A Meaningful World," by Benjamin Wiker & Jonathan Witt.

Originally Posted by reed9 And what interpretation manages that?

It is the interpretation that lets the Bible explains itself.
It also implies, that if some concept commonly thought to be "Christian" contradicts the Bible, it has to be dropped as something preventing the clear understanding.

Originally Posted by kostya I'm terribly sorry if I insulted you in any way, as suggested by your remark. And I understand science well enough to see that your argument above is far from being unusual in a scientific dispute. It has even been far worse than that, when folks would even hit one another with huge volumes or even their fists in the heat of a scientific discussion. Apart from that, it would be interesting to hear the reasons and proofs to support one's scientific theory. But one mustn't expect that such proofs will be accepted without some criticism. You see, I have some prerequisite understanding of science .

Hmm, I'd have to look back, but I may have confused some of bluegospels posts with yours. Were you disputing the facts of evolution?

Originally Posted by bluegospel With all due respect, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you are really a living being, then you also experience being a living being. A rock, which is purely matter, probably doesn't experience anything. You do. Your brain, with all its chemicals and electric impulses--all this is matter. Humans might someday create a very life-like robot whose processing mechanics simulate the human brain. Yet we'll never invent a robot that can experience the human or any animal-like experience. In other words, the electric impulses only prove mechanics of life. Try proving the experience--how we can have any sensation.

How would you know if the robot had "experience" like people? Why couldn't a robot be created that can experience like a human or animal? Because humans (and animals?) allegedly have souls? Then that's just begging the question, you have to assume the conclusion in the premise. What exactly is experience? (Or qualia as philosophers call it.) What is consciousness? We don't have any good answers to these questions, so to assume the negative seems premature.

Originally Posted by kostya C'mon, who has ever cared about the details of Jewish life, unless it be those studying the Bible?

Jewish people? It's their cultural history you're talking about here.

Originally Posted by kostya Besides, the issue in question doesn't alter in any way the effectiveness and wisdom of the council found in the Bible.

Except it does, or else you wouldn't be here saying it says something it doesn't say. If the Bible did say something about gravity or life on other planets, then that would be pretty impressive wisdom for its age.

May I recommend people to watch the documentary "religulous"?
Part 1 is here, the rest can be found in the similar links. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4