The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by SL00b I gave you this link once before, apparently you didn't look at it. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu...ence/long.html

This is all wrong translation or interpretation in this link. Go and cross check from Quran.com

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Difficult to duplicate, but not impossible. Agree. So behind that technical hand how many brains, how much efforts put compare to evolution "automatic" development.... Still you need to realize how that marvel piece of engineering got developed without any brain behind, without any support, without any blueprint.... HOW?

Would you kindly finally read about genetic algorithms and neural networks? I suggested to learn about them a while ago and you obviously still hadn't bothered.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Not agree. Everything has got limit. We are creating tools to help us further. And if we go as per evolution, why we are not able to develop those tools in our body.

Because they are not necessarry for survival and can be obtained by different means.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am not saying science can not create. May be it can create after 10 years or 50. But behind that there will be several scientists brain and science. What evolution had????? You have no answer.... So you will say "time"....

If creating a perfect artificial hand takes only 100 of years after first microchip, I'd say it is more likely that it evolved and was not a result of intelligent design. To be designed by a god it is far too simple, 3800000000 years of non-intelligent trial/error looks far more plausible. If a human body was designed, then why the hell can't I instantly change my shape by will? This surely would have been far more efficient.

Originally Posted by SigTerm I'd like to get an answer to following question. Even *if* a god exists (currently there's no proof) and even *if* whatever holy book you use has divine origin (currently there's no proof), how can you be sure that whatever is written within holy book is not a lie or a result of divine mistake/miscalculation? Why do you think that a holy text can be trusted if it has divine origin? As I understand it, a god should be capable of making mistakes and lying, and it is reasonable to expect that something like a god has absolutely no reason to care about humans. Most people kill an insect without a second thought. For a god, you should as insignificant as an insect is for you. So how do you know that (for example) your god (if it exists) is not toying with you for its own amusement by imposing rules and promising "heaven"?

One way of proving something is also try to disprove that. I follow Quran and I asked this everyone here, none dare to take challenge to disprove. If Quran says something which cant be proved today same time that can not be disprove also. For example, Jinn. Jinns are invisibel to us. They carry same parallel world like we human beings. Some of them also follow God's instructions, rest of them not. They also will be rewarded hell or heaven like we human being. I can not prove this. Same time science also can not disprove that.

But there are several things written which are getting proved today with help of science. Those things cant be said 1500 years before, because human being had no knowledge of that.
There is a web site I found few days back http://www.quranandscience.com/ they have some compilation what mentioned in Quran and got proved in light of science.

God can lie, ofcourse yes. He can do that. He can do anything. But there is no need for him to lie. This is not as per his character. The one who created EVERYTHING including you & me don't need to lie. He is most merciful, and knowledge of everything.

Originally Posted by tiredofbilkyyaforallican Yeah and if I gave 12 different priests, rabbis or whatever the same verse in the bible,Koran or whatever book I would undoubtedly get 12 different perceptions on said matter (even giving the same verse to EACH for a sermon )!!! If these books were made by some omnipotent being don't you feel we'd get the same results??? Furthermore If there is a"God" why are there so many different holy books??? Personally I believe more toward the big bang theory being more believable!!!

There was no great communication mechanism earlier what we have today. Thats why God sent messengers and prophets in each and every corner of this earth, so that judgment day human being can not say that he dont have information of God. Different holy books exists because human knowledge is not same in all generation. We are maturing day by day. Holy books were sent according to generation what humans could digest.
Very simple example, you study science from your 6th standard to your graduation to doctorate. What if books you have in doctorate given while you were at 6th standard. Would you able to digest?
Quarn is last revelation and Mohammed (pbuh) was seal of messenger. I heard Bible has references of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), which ofcourse came before Quran.

Originally Posted by Arcane How many times will we have to ask you to proove holy books are correct in first place before reffering to them as proof of God?

Go and refer this website, they have good number of compilations of Quran proved with help of science. If you get any doubt we can discuss that further.

http://www.quranandscience.com/

Originally Posted by ShaanAli One way of proving something is also try to disprove that. I follow Quran and I asked this everyone here, none dare to take challenge to disprove.

No matter what Quran says, you can't use that book to prove existence of god. Same applies to Bible. Book is not enough.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli But there is no need for him to lie. This is not as per his character. The one who created EVERYTHING including you & me don't need to lie. He is most merciful, and knowledge of everything.

I think you're overly optimistic for no reason - blinded by faith and aren't thinking rationally. A cow on a farm could also think that a farmer is caring or merciful master - until that cow is sent to slaughterhouse. Creation of universe is a bothersome process, and I don't think that "anybody"(or "anything") would do something like that without some kind of personal gain. If there is a god that created universe, then it gets something out of it, and it would be most rational to assume that reason for creation of everything is selfish and has nothing to do with humans. Until real motive for creation is known, there is no reason to trust the creator blindly.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Because they are not necessarry for survival and can be obtained by different means.

Did you not see individual humans surviving without hands, without legs, without eyes, without ears... Are these really necessary for us to survive?

Animals dont have hands like us, they are surviving.
Dogs cant see colour, they are surviving too.
Bats have very poor eyes, oops they got survived too....
Fishes dont have legs and hands.... they too survived......
Donkey has no brain, they are surviving too......
cockroach can survive without its head for several months.....
List is big.......

So why human being ALONE got all of them.
Why other animals dont have that much intelligence like human being, dont they need to grow their race?
Evolution again fail here to answer.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Dogs cant see colour, they are surviving too.

Compared to humans, dogs have superior sense of smell, superior speed, superior hearing, superior teeth.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Why other animals dont have that much intelligence like human being, dont they need to grow their race?

Because nearly all other animals are physically superior to humans in one or other way - their intelligence does not significantly affect their survival.

Read about genetic algorithms already.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Donkey has no brain, they are surviving too.......

LOL. Is that bit of nonsense in the Koran?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli {...}Just think, If God exists what Atheist and those who associate something with GOD will loose compare to if God don't exists what believer going to loose.

You forgot one detail - rules. Believers have to follow specific guidelines set by their holy book in order to not go to Hell even without knowing if they are correct rules or not. While non believers have free will without Hell-rules.

{...}Many scientists agree that no robot hand can be made having the complete functions of the hand.{...}

Yes so far but with time we find new stuff in future that even erases previous limits or theories or even "facts" sometimes.

Aliens may be tricks of Jinns.{...}

Maybe, maybe not - we don't need doubts but truth! You know browsing through idea of aliens i found interesting theory - that snake in bible was actually saving people and are wisdom creatures instead of Devil. Also explain then ancient stuff like pyramids and such? Do you really want me to believe they did all of that trouble in past without technology in short time just for fun or without help from "above"? I'm sorry but that is nonsence.

Go and refer this website, they have good number of compilations of Quran proved with help of science. If you get any doubt we can discuss that further.{...}

Sorry not interested yet and you did it for us already so why not just post list of proof that indicates God exists like your Quran says instead of trying to force people do analysis of website?

Go and ask the person who lost his hand and got replacement. Which one he want now robotic or his original hand.{...}

In that case answer this - in future(if next year prophecy won't end bad for us) when robotic hand will be developed by scientists correctly which one will you choose? Human body is just vehicle - if you had chance to switch vehicle to get different stuff done i doubt you would choose limited human body. Yes it is complicated but at same time not so miracle compared to other living bodies around. Also explain why we have useless stuff in our human body today that clearly shows evidence of our evolution like body hair, third eye lid and other?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I dont know much about Christianity. Jinns carry similar parallel world and they dont interfere in human business. They are created from fire and been created with same purpose as human. Based on their deeds they will also be rewarded hell or heaven.

Stories of djinn in Arabic culture are as old as Arabic culture... see Sheherazade, etc. Islam came along much, much later, so it's clear who borrowed from whom here.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli This is all wrong translation or interpretation in this link. Go and cross check from Quran.com

"This is all wrong" is not a good argument, so try again.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Go and ask the person who lost his hand and got replacement. Which one he want now robotic or his original hand.

What's that got to do with anything?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Difficult to duplicate, but not impossible. Agree. So behind that technical hand how many brains, how much efforts put compare to evolution "automatic" development.... Still you need to realize how that marvel piece of engineering got developed without any brain behind, without any support, without any blueprint.... HOW?

Evolution. Please stop arguing in a circle.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Not agree. Everything has got limit. We are creating tools to help us further. And if we go as per evolution, why we are not able to develop those tools in our body. With my knowledge last several million years we dont have even single minor development in our body towards that. Isn't?

Why do we not develop those tools in our body? Because there's absolutely no need. Our manufacture of tools removes any evolutionary pressures that would encourage their development.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli This is what i am trying to say. When we are so much in advance stage of science today. Human brains with science can not produce that now, how come that got created by itself without any support, without anybody behind. Knock your head buddy. I am not saying science can not create. May be it can create after 10 years or 50. But behind that there will be several scientists brain and science. What evolution had????? You have no answer.... So you will say "time"....

Yes, time. What part of "billions of years" are you having trouble with? I mean, here you are saying man can do it in 10-50 years, so why couldn't nature do it in 100 million times that?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli From where first DNA came, that still has no answer.

From mitochondria.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Did you not see individual humans surviving without hands, without legs, without eyes, without ears... Are these really necessary for us to survive? Animals dont have hands like us, they are surviving. Dogs cant see colour, they are surviving too. Bats have very poor eyes, oops they got survived too.... Fishes dont have legs and hands.... they too survived...... Donkey has no brain, they are surviving too...... cockroach can survive without its head for several months..... List is big....... So why human being ALONE got all of them. Why other animals dont have that much intelligence like human being, dont they need to grow their race? Evolution again fail here to answer.

I could rattle off a list of advantageous survival traits other animals have that humans lack... venom, ability to breathe underwater, sharp claws and fangs, superior sprinting ability, natural camoflage, etc. Pit a bare-handed human against any number of other animals, large and small, and the human gets the worst of it. We're slow and weak, with a poor selection of natural weapons. And for primates, we're woefully poor climbers, which means we're bad in the trees, on land, and in the sea. Trifecta.

There are other animals who have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to reason, cooperate in groups, and even fashion tools and structures, so if you think humans are the only creatures with intelligence, you are very much mistaken. If dolphins had had a reason to evolve hands and fashion tools, they'd have build cities in the sea. They thrive just fine without them, which frees them from concerns with traffic, pollution, etc., so now who's advanced?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli {...}http://www.quranandscience.com/

You know..a lot of things about any website can be said just by looking at its design, top articles and About us page which says:

This site aims to gather all available and well-revised information about scientific miracles in the holy Quran. ِAnd we aim to present a clear picture of Islam to the entire humanity. The holy Quran is the word of God. The Almighty revealed it to his final prophet to humanity. When prophets were inviting their people to the truth, God endowed them with miracles to convince their people. Moses was given a miracle that excelled magic and dazzled magicians in ancient Egypt. Jesus was given a miracle that excelled medicine and he could cure people from incurable diseases. The only people who could see these miracles are the ones who were there. Because the prophet Muhammad was the final prophet his miracle had to be continuous and immortal, this immortal miracle is the holy Quran itself. Allah (SWT) says: (We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things?) (Quran 41:53) At the age of revealing the holy Quran Arabs were excelled in poetry and prose, so the holy Quran challenged them by its eloquence. Nowadays miracles of the holy Quran appeared in the scientific signs mentioned in a lot of verses, these verses indicate to scientific facts which have been discovered since only few decades, This is an absolute proof that the holy Quran is the word of God.

Yet i don't see any stuff there in articles that are prooven by science or without using already acquired knowledge to explain stuff and without cherry-pick method. Seems like that website is mainstream victim itself created to entertain rather than gather truth evidence. Design is also mainstream and popsy.
It would be more handy if you provided some english lang|sub video links to watch or audio or short-reading pages. Not that we are lazy but if you are going to proove something - presentation from "expert in topic" would be just way efficient and time would not be spent for nothing considering that stuff. Video presentations in nowadays are great way to do stuff like that because viewers don't need do research and can get material to work with at same time without painful process of research or to be "experts". So please find some for us because talk without additional support base is cheap.