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Old 08-09-2011, 12:14 PM   #2491
Arcane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I could agree with your point if I would be follower of some nonsense human made religion. My religion rules are very simple:
Pray only one GOD. Dont associate anyone with Him.
Dont make any idols of GOD and pray that. Because He has no shape we know.
Be a good human being.
Support your old parents. Give equality to your wife.
Respect other women.
Love your neighbors and relatives.
Give charity to poors.
Dont be hard to animals. Slaughter them only for your food, not for fun.
Dont waste natural resources.
Dont hurt yourself.
etc...{...}
You don't need real God for these elementary rules to work in society. -_- Everyone wants live and be happy and respected so it is only natural that they treat others same way. Evolution theory also mentions that without cooperation we won't survive in wild and savage environment outside city. Btw these rules exist in every religion so what? Does it proove that Quran is superior to Bible?
Quote:
{...}Our prayer is infact kind of light yoga physical exercise. It will refresh you when you are tired of your work. This is practical.{...}
That is called active relaxation which also doesn't require Gods to work. You can relax doing passive relaxation or active and that won't proove God(s).
Quote:
{...}Evolutionists believe that millions of years ago, in the primal soup of the oceans or in pools of water, mindless atoms with no knowledge, powers of reason came together in certain proportions and later, by chance, formed the proteins and cells that even today's scientists with the most advanced laboratory technology have not been able to duplicate. They go so far as to say that these cells, in their turn-and again by sheer chance-formed starfish, fish, sparrows, hawks, seagulls, penguins, cats, lambs, lions, and even human beings who possess the faculty of reason. How this is possible?{...}
But how is your God theory any better?
Quote:
{...}I also said "may be". I am not sure if someone really has seen aliens or just making news for publicity. We dont know.
This is funny. If you claim to know about God then you automatically know about Evolution or Aliens.
Quote:
{...}I am not sure I got your point here.{...}
I am just pointing out that any theory could be correct since they have some sort of "evidence" - for God there is holy books, for Evolution there is mentioned body parts and DNA and nature observation and for Aliens there are unexplained ancient constructions But none of them offers killer evidence that clearly prooves that only this is truth and others are lies.
Quote:
{...}Website is not just one or two pages. They have pictures embedded which are required to understand their claim. I can not copy paste pictures here.{...}
Then post link and describe one or two as best you can.
Quote:
{...}My religion is not stopping me to go for something better.{...}
There is no best but ok. I only agree with you on one thing - when it comes to family, caring and opposite sex of course we won't change our bodies for that task but imagine you could fly or have super strength with technology or even better nano-technology like in Deus Ex game(highly reccomended btw to play) where people don't need remove their body parts but merge them with technology so that in case of need you can activate them or switch off.
Quote:
{...}Body hair, extra meat on eye corner, ... You call them useless stuff because probably you dont now the use of them "now"??? Is it not possible you will know tomorrow the real use of them with help of science. I read somewhere tail bone looks useless but it actually absorbs the shock when you sit back hard. We have very advance science, but again its not so advance that it knows everything. Discovery will go on....
This is just theory. And if there will be emergency don't you think we will need more usefull items at our disposal?

Last edited by Arcane; 08-09-2011 at 12:20 PM. Reason: lame typo virus
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:14 PM   #2492
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
I have seen practical application of evolutionary principles. In ONE day of computation randomly connected pile of cubes can learn how to walk from nothing. This practical application makes me think that it is highly possible that similar principle could have caused existence of modern lifeforms (given amount of time). All other material I encountered (internal structure of living beings) is compatible with that theory. Nearly all big lifeforms have identical basic structure - tail + four legs + two eyes + two ears. I have not heard of animals that are radically different from anything else - nobody has ever encountered an animal that has two wings AND four legs, for example. That makes it plausiable that everything has descended from one common origin.
show us that practical application.....
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:22 PM   #2493
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
But dont human being ever wanted to fly? Last 2 millions years there should be something in our body which could prove us yes we have got this which could be developed later as wing. Do we have anything such in our body? Do we have any such development in our body for any of our desire???
If you repeat same argument 50 times, it won't make it become correct, although people will certainly respect you less.

Your desire to fly doesn't mean sh*t. Your desire to make tools out of your body also doesn't mean sh*t. In fact none of your desires matter for natural selection. For a natural selection you're a cannon fodder, and there is no goal.

To have a type of animal evolve into winged lifeform, every single animal that is worse flyer than others will have to be unable to mate, become sterile or die before making an offspring. In every generation, for millions of years. Process will be slow and gradual, so animal won't grow extra limbs, but will use some existing organ to make it more suitable for flying.

See flying squirrels and draco (flying lizards) for examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
show us that practical application.....
Why don't you do your homework and google it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Once we are dead thats it. No rollback.
So, you don't believe in afterlife? Are you really a muslim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Think why I am wasting my time here. What will I gain. I am here for you guys.
I'd advise to stop wasting your time and find something better to do.
If you can't understand evolution, can't prove your own religion, never doubted your own faith and yet somehow expect to change somebody else's opinion, then you're being overconfident and will never succeed in converting anybody. It took years to find/develop my personal opinion about god (agnosticism) and moral system I'm completely comfortable with, and YOU expect to change it all in one forum discussion without ever meeting me in person? Aren't you being a little bit overconfident?

Last edited by SigTerm; 08-09-2011 at 12:43 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:34 PM   #2494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}Your desire to fly doesn't mean sh*t. Your desire to make tools out of your body also doesn't mean sh*t. In fact none of your desires matter for natural selection.{...}
Sorry for quoting you instead of him but if he wants to fly so bad there are 2 options available which wouldn't mean sh*t:
1)Find some flying vehicle or create yourself and pilot or become pilot yourself - and fly!
2)Join science! Explore DNA. Maybe one day you will find DNA code or technology that can add birdish wings to humans and you be rewarded with Nobel prize - and again fly!
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:46 PM   #2495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Think why I am wasting my time here. What will I gain. I am here for you guys. I know you are wrong. Just trying to make you understand. If you are not ready to realize I will leave one day. Time will tell everyone of us who was wrong. But it will be late. No rollback. No second chance.
I'm forced to say this, my friend ... Get a Life, please.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:47 PM   #2496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Sorry for quoting you instead of him but if he wants to fly so bad there are 2 options available which wouldn't mean sh*t:
1)Find some flying vehicle or create yourself and pilot or become pilot yourself - and fly!
2)Join science! Explore DNA. Maybe one day you will find DNA code or technology that can add birdish wings to humans and you be rewarded with Nobel prize - and again fly!
Yeah, there's that. However, his complaint was about evolution. Another thing is that if you hack your own DNA, you might become incompatible (i.e. won't be able to have children with) with "Normal" humans.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 12:54 PM   #2497
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}Another thing is that if you hack your own DNA, you might become incompatible (i.e. won't be able to have children with) with "Normal" humans.
Yea but scientists usually are prepared for common troubles so i have low doubt they won't consider this when creating all of that stuff + you can always activate flying after "bedroom business"..
 
Old 08-09-2011, 01:03 PM   #2498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I said that website has got all wrong translations and based on that they are misguiding people.
And I said that that's not an argument, so try again. An argument would be to grab a couple of examples, present the original Koran text the examples were based on, and then discuss how they would be interpreted in another way.

You know... evidence? Reason?
 
Old 08-09-2011, 01:33 PM   #2499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I could agree with your point if I would be follower of some nonsense human made religion.
Well, it turns out that you're a follower of a nonsense, human-made religion, so now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
My religion rules are very simple:
Pray only one GOD. Dont associate anyone with Him.
Dont make any idols of GOD and pray that. Because He has no shape we know.
Be a good human being.
Support your old parents. Give equality to your wife.
Respect other women.
Love your neighbors and relatives.
Give charity to poors.
Dont be hard to animals. Slaughter them only for your food, not for fun.
Dont waste natural resources.
Dont hurt yourself.
etc...

So is there any rule you can tell me not correct? We have got brain to analyze if rules are good for us or not. Unfortunately there is no single such rule which harm anyone. If so, I need to know.
Except for the first two rules, none of this is unique to Islam. It's pretty common no matter which religion you follow... if you even follow one at all.

I'd also say that the rule about giving equality to your wife is most un-Islamic. The Koran is chock full of passages about how women are lesser citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
So is there any harm following them even if there is no GOD. this was my point. You may say next, we wasting time in praying. Well its really not much. 5 times in a day. 5-10 minutes each time. So hardly 30-40 minutes in a day. We waste 2-3 hours watching TV doing nothing. Our prayer is infact kind of light yoga physical exercise. It will refresh you when you are tired of your work. This is practical.
I'd say the biggest waste is all the stress and worry of living up to an impossible (and often contradictory) standard. Don't worry, be happy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Agree. But this was not my point. This theory puts forth the irrational claim that all plants, animals and human beings are the result of blind, unconscious, accidental events. Evolutionists believe that millions of years ago, in the primal soup of the oceans or in pools of water, mindless atoms with no knowledge, powers of reason came together in certain proportions and later, by chance, formed the proteins and cells that even today's scientists with the most advanced laboratory technology have not been able to duplicate. They go so far as to say that these cells, in their turn-and again by sheer chance-formed starfish, fish, sparrows, hawks, seagulls, penguins, cats, lambs, lions, and even human beings who possess the faculty of reason. How this is possible?
Curious use of the word "irrational" there, because as a solid scientific theory that is backed by mountains of evidence, which has made superior predictions about things we hadn't yet discovered, evolution represents a triumph of rational thought.

How is this possible? Again, evolution. Please stop asking the same question over and over and over and over and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I also said "may be". I am not sure if someone really has seen aliens or just making news for publicity. We dont know.
I find it interesting that someone who just dismissed evolution as irrational is seriously entertaining the idea of extraterrestrial visitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
My religion is not stopping me to go for something better. If scientists really can bring something better than my hand and it will be no cost to me and I will see real use of that and i will see atleast so many people got benefit from that, I may think to go for that. It will be a careful decision because if I loose my hand, I wont get that back. My DNA wont reproduce that back to me. My nature is to love original stuff even its with less feature.
Obviously your religion IS stopping you from going for something better, because otherwise you wouldn't be leaving it up to scientists. You'd be part of the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Body hair, extra meat on eye corner, ... You call them useless stuff because probably you dont now the use of them "now"??? Is it not possible you will know tomorrow the real use of them with help of science. I read somewhere tail bone looks useless but it actually absorbs the shock when you sit back hard. We have very advance science, but again its not so advance that it knows everything. Discovery will go on....
The tailbone is an otherwise useless vestige of our primate ancestry, except that certain muscles use it as an attachment point. If it had never been there, those muscles would have attached somewhere else.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 01:43 PM   #2500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
You dont have anything to prove from evolution. Because thats just nonsense theory, sorry baseless scientific theory. You yourself know that. Just because you study that in your school you think thats true.{...}
And how is your theory different? Btw when did you start "know" and study about God? Family, school, friends? Why do you think they are correct?
Quote:
{...}We developed plane few hundred years back only. But dont human being ever wanted to fly? Last 2 millions years there should be something in our body which could prove us yes we have got this which could be developed later as wing. Do we have anything such in our body? Do we have any such development in our body for any of our desire???{...}
Of course we wanted fly. That is why we created planes and other flying vehicles in first place and only later we added use of them in other areas.
Quote:
{...}Why evolution is dead since last 2 millions of years? Any answer?{...}
This question applies to God too - how come God is silent for so much time period even there are millions of believers who pray but nothing changes? See this disaster video again and tell me why God was like "Ah! Screw them! They deserve to die anyway."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQrQ2m-yxB0
Quote:
{...}Time, we dont have time my dear friend. We cant wait for evolution scientists to say sorry we were wrong. They already took 150+ years and still they have nothing in their hand. Our time is running fast. Once we are dead thats it. No rollback.{...}
Ever heard of funerals? They proove this death without miracles.
Quote:
{...}Think why I am wasting my time here. What will I gain. I am here for you guys. I know you are wrong. Just trying to make you understand. If you are not ready to realize I will leave one day.{...}
There can be many reasons like - you are troll; you want discuss this deeper using "new" "arguments" so that people will be either pissed off to reply or just interested talk more; you are bored; something else
Quote:
{...}Time will tell everyone of us who was wrong. But it will be late. No rollback. No second chance.
Again - we don't need God to proove this death and aging fact and the fact that when we will die or face truth we will finally either meet it or go blackout forever like we came with blackout to this world and when we go to sleep when we don't dream or get nightmares we get blackout aswell.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 01:49 PM   #2501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
You dont have anything to prove from evolution. Because thats just nonsense theory, sorry baseless scientific theory. You yourself know that. Just because you study that in your school you think thats true.
Sorry, I don't share your ignorance of the subject. I know it because I've been exposed to a lot of the evidence that confirms it. Why are bacterias becoming resistant to human antibiotics? Evolution. How can single-celled yeasts grown in clusters develop a second, specialized cell type? Evolution. How can the strange varieties of life in the Galapagos Islands be explained? Evolution. Why does the fossil record betray a consistent development of life from simple to complex? Evolution.

Rather than just dismissing it as baseless, you could try educating yourself on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
We developed plane few hundred years back only. But dont human being ever wanted to fly? Last 2 millions years there should be something in our body which could prove us yes we have got this which could be developed later as wing. Do we have anything such in our body? Do we have any such development in our body for any of our desire??? Why evolution is dead since last 2 millions of years? Any answer?
First of all, wanting to fly and evolving flight are two very different things that have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Man would first have to evolve into a very lightweight creature with hollow bones. What survival benefits do those traits provide in a hunter-gatherer society? How desirable would he be to potential mates? The desirable breeding traits in a male were size and strength, pushing selective pressures in the opposite direction from flight.

And if you think there's been no evolution in 2 million years, you are woefully uninformed. Genus homo only diverged from the Australopithecines about 2.3 million years ago. Homo sapiens only emerged about 250,000 years ago.
 
Old 08-09-2011, 01:57 PM   #2502
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Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
{...}Rather than just dismissing it as baseless, you could try educating yourself on it.{...}
Yep and this is what open-mind does in first place. It first examines theory and only afterwards jumps to conclusions. Believers seem to forget everything about this when their "holy book" is on trial.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 04:02 AM   #2503
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli
You dont have anything to prove from evolution. Because thats just nonsense theory, sorry baseless scientific theory. You yourself know that. Just because you study that in your school you think thats true.

[...]

We developed plane few hundred years back only. But dont human being ever wanted to fly? Last 2 millions years there should be something in our body which could prove us yes we have got this which could be developed later as wing. Do we have anything such in our body? Do we have any such development in our body for any of our desire??? Why evolution is dead since last 2 millions of years? Any answer?
Can't tell if you're brain damaged or just willfully ignorant...
 
Old 08-11-2011, 09:03 AM   #2504
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Almost didn't notice this - quoted again so you won't delete it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}We have got brain to analyze if rules are good for us or not.{...}
Ok now please answer me this extra question(using that brain) - If God is He then how come all life comes from She-type creatures or at least combined from both? This is just something fake. Read this also and think about it. Conclusion is simple: *If* God exists then God has to be either combined element from both He and She or just She.
For lazy ones quote:
Quote:
{...}A second element unique to western culture is that we have practically the only mythology on the planet in which the masculine gives birth to the feminine. Eve is made from the rib of Adam. Nowhere else, except in Greek mythology, does this appear. As the ways of the feminine began to be lost, Zeus became the dominant god. In the early Greek mythologies, the goddess, the “creatrix”, was predominant. As she began to be eclipsed by the masculine principle, Zeus became predominant. And though Zeus took the goddess Hera for his bride, she refused to submit to him. Thereafter, she was known in mythology as “the bitch” because you cannot repress the feminine without ill effect. Eventually, it becomes deadly for a culture, and this is what has happened to us.{...}
Nice TV series about these Gods are in Xena and Hercules.

Last edited by Arcane; 08-11-2011 at 09:10 AM.
 
Old 08-11-2011, 09:47 AM   #2505
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Came across some exciting news today which confirms evolution, because humans can use what we have learned from evolution to control an outcome. Here's a genetically-engineered virus used to infect human T-cells, the virus modifies the DNA of the T-cell, and the modified T-cell acts on its new DNA instructions to seek and destroy leukemia cells.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-...,1073777.story
 
  


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