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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 166 28.77%
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Theist 23 3.99%
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:29 PM   #2311
ShaanAli
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Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Not to mention official records (birth, death, immigration, land purchase, etc.), old photographs/news stories, burial sites, passed-down stories/recipes/traditions/property, and common knowledge of how people come into existence.

These analogies are getting worse and worse.
You are coming to my point: knowledge which is getting shared generation to generation. Sometimes there is no records but knowledge.

I took example of just 150 years back of your generation. Probably you wont be knowing his name also. I hope you wont be able to get even those records you mentioned above. And we go 150 years more back, will you have again all those records? Think....

And you are looking for proofs of 1500 years back.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:31 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Evolution.
Its proved? Science proved that? Dont mind, but plz increase your knowledge first.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:37 PM   #2313
SL00b
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Keep that stone there intact and make sure nobody touches that, not air no water. And lets see evolution change that to something else.
ROFL. Not touching air or water? Then how on earth did you see it? Was it suspended in jelly?

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Provide proof.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu...ence/long.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
It means till someone else dont come and disprove this you will keep accepting this. This is then your belief in this. Since you are not sure 100%.

You yourself relying on some other source(s) to provide you proof. How do you know they are correct or not. How do you know what you study in school is 100% correct. Who validates that? AND Who validate the validator?.... Ofcouse you didnt go in depth of that, You didnt verify anything by youself..... It means YOU BLINDLY BELIEVE THAT. Isn't?
So the choice is between religion and nihilism? False dichotomy.

I don't have the time and energy to devote to becoming an expert on particle physics, so I'll take their word for it, they've managed to come up with some rather impressive results, and if they've been wrong all along, I don't see it having any direct influence on my life.

There is a huge gulf between this position and "blind belief."

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I just came to know E=mc^2 is not correct always !!!!! (source internet, verified: NO)
Ye gods.

Are you even noticing how much more ridiculous your arguments are becoming?
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:40 PM   #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Its proved? Science proved that? Dont mind, but plz increase your knowledge first.
One major thing about science is that everything is up for debate, a lot of known science from previous decades / centuries is discredited, you need to define what you take "proof" to be though. You seem to think seeing a stone is proof of God existing. The vast overwhelming weight of evidence says evolution exists, unless you willfully ignore and misinterpret the evidence to hand.

Lots of Darwin's theories were incorrect and crude, but they have been studied and researched and fine tune and peer reviewed and such so that what is presented in subsequent theories is backed up with evidence and study and proof.

and then some moronic fool says "Oh yeah? Then why aren't monkeys still evolving??" and think they've undermined it when they've just made themselves look stupid.

Last edited by acid_kewpie; 07-27-2011 at 02:44 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:42 PM   #2315
SL00b
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Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
One major thing about science is that everything is up for debate, a lot of known science from previous decades / centuries is discredited, you need to define what you take "proof" to be though. You seem to think seeing a stone is proof of God existing.
Well, also the fact that evolution won't change the rock, because of course evolution is a biological process, so I think he's trying to say rocks are alive.

Nevermind the fact that rocks are constantly being changed, see geology.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:43 PM   #2316
easuter
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Its proved? Science proved that? Dont mind, but plz increase your knowledge first.
I suspect you never learned about the philosophy of science or how the scientific method works in school. You're wasting everyone's time and making a fool of yourself while thinking you are actually making a challenging argument.

If you are really interested in learning about evolution by natural selection then I'd suggest visiting http://talkorigins.org/, visiting your local library and read books written by real biologists.

Last edited by easuter; 07-27-2011 at 03:52 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 02:53 PM   #2317
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
You should learn how evolution works before trying to discuss it.
What evolution says about life and death (souls)?

Quote:
Didn't David Copperfield or the Great Houdini do the same? Are they prophets now?
They were mere illusionist or magicians. We may have 1000s like them.

Quote:
Sorry, but this isn't the way it works. You believe that the Qur'an is true, so you are the one to prove that it really is.
Good to know you don't have confidence in you to disprove. But surely I will try to prove....
 
Old 07-27-2011, 03:02 PM   #2318
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
One major thing about science is that everything is up for debate...
That is the key thing about science vs religion. In science even though things can change due to other theories or new proofs, it only causes a miner stir until people adjust accordingly to the new facts. In religion however, nothing is open for debate whatever said holy book says is final, and any possible arguments against or anything that actually disproves what said holy book says, it is deemed blasphemous, or even worse and in most occasions met with violence and murder.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 03:03 PM   #2319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
What evolution says about life and death (souls)?
Evolution is the science about development of life-forms. Since souls, if they exist, are not a life-form evolution says nothing about them, logically. The same way neuro-biology says nothing about why your tooth-nails are growing.

Quote:
They were mere illusionist or magicians. We may have 1000s like them.
How can you say that your prophets were not of the same kind? How can you prove that someone is a magician or illusionist, not a prophet or vice versa? With using science for that?

Quote:
Good to know you don't have confidence in you to disprove.
You see that wrong. You say that Qu'ran is true, that is your claim. I didn't say that it is not true. But it is up to you to prove your claim, not to me to disprove it. Come up with a prove and I will think about it's correctness. I doubt you can.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 03:08 PM   #2320
SL00b
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Its proved? Science proved that? Dont mind, but plz increase your knowledge first.
Yes, evolution is proven. We're still refining our understanding of how it works, but that's down in the details, in the big picture the overall framework has stood the test of time.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 03:13 PM   #2321
SL00b
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
You are coming to my point: knowledge which is getting shared generation to generation. Sometimes there is no records but knowledge.

I took example of just 150 years back of your generation. Probably you wont be knowing his name also. I hope you wont be able to get even those records you mentioned above. And we go 150 years more back, will you have again all those records? Think....

And you are looking for proofs of 1500 years back.
You're talking to the wrong dude here, because I have in my possession a photograph of a great-great grandfather taken at an old chariot race circa 1908, and he was already fairly advanced in age then.

Apart from the racing chariots in the local county fair, he was probably an unremarkable man. But momentous events leave their stories behind. If we can have physical evidence of the existence of Julius Caesar, why can't we have physical evidence of an otherworldy visitor nearly eight centuries later?
 
Old 07-27-2011, 03:17 PM   #2322
SigTerm
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Why dont you go ahead and prove non-divine origin.
Why should I? I'm agnostic, my position looks reasonable to me, I don't feel like proving it to be "truth" to anybody. You're trying to claim, that your religion is "truth", so it is your job to support that claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Do you have proof of your grandfather of grandfather?
Yes I do - I have photos (made at the beginning of 20th century - somewhere around 1908), and it is possible to dig up official records.

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Why human dont have that sense?
Because having this sense did not impact survival of humans.

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Why evolution/nature didnt give us that capability?
Evolution doesn't "give" you anything. Evolution is a big slaughter machine - it kills everything. If a specie accidentally develop an insignificantly small random change that helps to survive slightly better, then this specie will reproduce before it dies and its children will reach maturity before they all die. That process repeats for millions of years. That's all about it. It is not about "perfection", or "having best abilities", it is about not dying too soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Dont we want to know the storm coming?
Have you heard about meteorologists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Why are we not having best capabilities exists on this earth.
Because evolution is not about having best capabilities. It is about being able to survive and continue your lineage. Having best capabilities did not impact survival of humans, so we don't have them.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-27-2011 at 03:20 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2011, 05:17 PM   #2323
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Nature btw does everything right - it is people who f*c# everything up with their ignorance and need for money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}You yourself relying on some other source(s) to provide you proof. How do you know they are correct or not. How do you know what you study in school is 100% correct. Who validates that? AND Who validate the validator?.... Ofcouse you didnt go in depth of that, You didnt verify anything by youself..... It means YOU BLINDLY BELIEVE THAT. Isn't?{...}
Wow i don't like calling people by names but you sure like to provoke.
1)We live in society - humans made its laws, order and language(basicaly truth in general about it) therefore we KNOW it is truth. What you are asking is if word "Sun" represents the real Sun from Solar system. Of course it is! Language purpose is to be same 24/7.
2)If you have doubts about something all you need to do is TEST it! Science always gives way to reproove it with different approaches unlike religion which has only one explanation for everything - holy books.
3)Most important - Ask that question about "blind faith" to yourself about religion or to those people who teached you that Quran is "only real truth about God". See? Unlike religion science applies for everyone not just VIP people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}I am saying in very simple words. Disprove holy book Quran with help of all your sciences. Can you take that challenge?
Already did ffs. The trouble is that none of believers can proove it exists precisely 1:1 how holy book wants it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}Do you have proof of your grandfather of grandfather? If you dont have proof, will you consider him a lie. Your logic.
Is this best you can offer as argument for God? Really? You know for sure(since you are alive) we all have parents&grand[...]parents in family tree(this is how it works from beggining of time - fact - when you will decide to have own(not adopted or created by lab(possible in future)) kids you won't have other choice to get them yourself) but you doubt they exist to proove God? Are you really that ignorant or just are laugh-addict? I understand that trolling has benefits - makes people discuss stuff deeper and such but you trip way too much in own belief system and this is getting pointless to continue. In real life your fake arguments don't work and you know it.
Want proof you had parents in past? Take off clothes - depending if you are girl or boy you will have specific reproducing organs for this task - this is proof in front of your eyes!

Last edited by Arcane; 07-27-2011 at 06:04 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2011, 10:19 AM   #2324
ShaanAli
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Nature btw does everything right - it is people who f*c# everything up with their ignorance and need for money.
So are we with common point: nature is a great designer and human is destroyer? (What you call as nature, its GOD for us. right? )

Quote:
Wow i don't like calling people by names but you sure like to provoke.
1)We live in society - humans made its laws, order and language(basicaly truth in general about it) therefore we KNOW it is truth. What you are asking is if word "Sun" represents the real Sun from Solar system. Of course it is! Language purpose is to be same 24/7.
2)If you have doubts about something all you need to do is TEST it! Science always gives way to reproove it with different approaches unlike religion which has only one explanation for everything - holy books.
3)Most important - Ask that question about "blind faith" to yourself about religion or to those people who teached you that Quran is "only real truth about God". See? Unlike religion science applies for everyone not just VIP people.
1). We call Sun as Sun. Some other part of world may be calling it as XYZ. How it makes difference as long as its properties are not changed?

2). First of all.... There is no Science vs GOD. Can you think of Science vs Nature? Infact science is ruining nature and nature is helping science in every step.

"Religion has only one explanation for everyhing - holy books". NO.
Instead Religion explanation starts from holy book and may lead to logic and science for proof. Religion does not say forget science and just obey me. Instead religion says, follow my rules so that you make this world better place to leave and use science to make your life easy. Simple.

For example TV is a product of science. Do my religion says, dont watch TV.
Religion has no issue as long as I am not watching anything which is not prohibited. For example, nudity. Just think we all love our kids. We never allow them to do anything wrong which may hurt them. We dont let them play with bad toys, smoke, drink. We always teach them how behave with others, give respect, no fight etc.... but we forget to apply those rules on us. They are harmful for us as well. Is it not logical if there is GOD, Would He want us to do all these? Dont he not want us to be pure and kind like kids???

Rules defined in holy book are for us, not for GOD. If we follow them, we will become a good human being... No one here read the book but made a perception in his mind that this book is not divine. Why should i read and waste my time?... but we forgot, somewhere in our heart looking for truth for several years...


3). I never said Quran is only holy book from GOD. There are several other holy books like Bible, Torah... Overall Allah sent over hundred thousands messengers in each and every part of world with different messages and for a specific period of time. BUT Mohammed (pbuh) was the last and final messenger.

As a muslim I believe in Quran, same time in Bible and Torah. Unfortunately Bible and Torah have been changed by human for their interest. Leaving it no more divine books.

Allah had promised to keep the Quran intact. So its again a miracle even after so many years not a single dot has been changed.


Quote:
Already did ffs.
Dont use bad words. Lets keep environment healthy.

I dont think u proved (basically disproved).


Quote:
Is this best you can offer as argument for God? Really? You know for sure(since you are alive) we all have parents&grand[...]parents in family tree(this is how it works from beggining of time - fact - when you will decide to have own(not adopted or created by lab(possible in future)) kids you won't have other choice to get them yourself) but you doubt they exist to proove God? Are you really that ignorant or just are laugh-addict? I understand that trolling has benefits - makes people discuss stuff deeper and such but you trip way too much in own belief system and this is getting pointless to continue. In real life your fake arguments don't work and you know it.
Want proof you had parents in past? Take off clothes - depending if you are girl or boy you will have specific reproducing organs for this task - this is proof in front of your eyes!
No need to take my pent off to know something new.... several points which science know now about reproduction, has been written already in holy book. I will give details later. Now in hurry.
I used that example (super grandfather...) in fly as argument to show when we have no much evidence/proof/records of our 3-4 generation back, how we are expecting same from 1400 years back.....
 
Old 07-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #2325
ShaanAli
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Evolution doesn't "give" you anything. Evolution is a big slaughter machine - it kills everything. If a specie accidentally develop an insignificantly small random change that helps to survive slightly better, then this specie will reproduce before it dies and its children will reach maturity before they all die. That process repeats for millions of years. That's all about it. It is not about "perfection", or "having best abilities", it is about not dying too soon.
I think with this logic our body should be very much tough by now ready to fight with any challenge it faces. But in reality we are becoming more weak and weak. Average human age is reduced drastically. Thanks God we improved a lot in medicine science, otherwise...
 
  


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