The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by SilverBack {...}Reminds me of a 'fortune' I read once{...}

Also it reminds me of this movie - average joe is sent to future and it turns out he is most intelligent person alive there and people start treating him God..to be honest this applies to us in ancient times too. Some intelligent enough people did trick to convince others and then it all started...hell if we were born in those times we would think like that aswell because we wouldn't know that we can not believe in it.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli We are talking about angel Jibril. English name Gabriel.

Oh, isn't he a character in the christians mythologies?

Originally Posted by baldy3105 Oh, isn't he a character in the christians mythologies?

Yeah, it's all more or less the same: Jewish/Christian/Islamic. Variations on a theme.

Originally Posted by SilverBack ...Reminds me of a 'fortune' I read once - ' The company of people searching for the truth is more bearable to the company of people who have already found it'.

I wonder where you can have seen that? ;-)

Surfing internet found these comments and "arguments":

Your understanding of the Bible is so feeble it's not even funny. Without proper understanding of the Bible (which can only come with help from the Holy Spirit) you won't understand any of it as God intended. So please stop posting your non-sense and stop trying to comprehend God's intentions with your human logic.

when the church says that man is made in the image of God it means Love... Corny yes but thats what the church is saying God is love and as such we are images of love... The whole idea that God is love comes from the fact that God wishes us to be happy, its intrinsic in our nature, to be part of the community, to feel, to be seen, it is all human nature that is being suppressed in this capitalist world... Over a few decades the Roman Curia developed a teaching that basically explains this... dnt ask me how they arrived at it but hell thats groundbreaking... God is Love, we are perfect images of Love... then why the hell do we kill each other? Because of greed and various other sins, we are temporal PHYSICAL beings of existance, once we die we move on to a different plane, we experience enlightenment on a different level beyond that of the scope of the human person... we are bound by the limitations of the physical, the body that has 2/3 of its brain still in the ice ages, we desire all the sins as back in the day those sins actually promoted life and so became engrained in our brains constricting our growth as spiritual beings, as now these sins now repersent all that is "bad" in society when truly some sin is actually good for the person as long as it isn't in excess... Basically it all boils down to the fact that we are physical and cannot see "God" as he really is and so we have "religions" that promote THEORIES on who and what God is... But since we cannot comprehend God as a whole in our states it can be seen that all religions are flawed inherently in their structures... just use religion as a vehicle to help you in your search for God and find it on your own, don't rely on others they are all different with different motives, thoughts, etc... And you cannot deny there is a god... every physicist will tell you there are patterns everywhere in the universe, patterns that shouldn't be there according to chaos theory or is it heat? anyway patterns everywhere where they shouldnt be working together perfectly, can you doubt there is a God with this evidence? thx 4 reading my little ramble HUGS!!! ... Hugs non-refundable...

I echo ITSfun2bBROKEN! For you folks that do not understand the idea of man being made perfect and what God is, just read, 1 John 4:8 New International Version “8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.� “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.� Psalm 14:1 American King James Version I just wanted to tell ya guys enjoy the time you have now and drink lots of CoolAid ‘cause they do not serve it where you are going. Much love 100ksi

has anyone actually watched these movies? everyone in here bitchin about god and religion and its all been explained. Heres a couple questions your you god fearing bible bashers. If god is so great and loving then why are you god fearing? doesnt make sense. And why is it that the bible and god are considered facts but when you talk about ancient religions its "Mythology"? If you actually watched these movies you would see that all your stories and all the characters in your so called good book are all taken from previous religions. That makes it not only fiction but plagiarized fiction. I'm not sayin that there is no entity that guides us im just sayin its not god. the only people who had it right were the pagans who worshiped life love and nature, and they never went door to door trying to convert people or committed genocide because others didnt believe what they did. "Man made god, therefore Man IS god"

Needless to say even believers here deny holy book version as true version of God. Love? This is very possible since love and truth come from real values of life section and in their pure form are perfect worthy to be believed in - this is what God should be PERFECT and this is what makes people still believe but holy book crap? Seriously...

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I dont know why Allah didnt say exactly so.

Then I recommend you to THINK that since Allah, the knower of all, creator of the universe, who taught babies to suck milk, humans to walk etc., why on earth did he NOT mention clearly that anyone who keeps slaves will be considered a Kafir IMMEDIATELY, since keeping slaves is inhuman?

A God which doesn't say that keeping slaves is a EXTREMELY HORRIBLE sin, isn't worth worshiping, IMHO.

Merely saying that freeing a slave is considered a good deed, doesn't mean that if a Muslim keeps slaves, he will be considered a Kafir and will be thrown to hell.

Read between the lines of "the God" and think please.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If you have knowledge, perhaps there is no country who has rule to free its prisoners.

Giving an example of the "mere mortal" country's government for justifying the word of the creator of the Universe? Think before you type, please.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I hope you know now what Allah said how to treat with your slaves (prisoners)

But the Quran verse 4:24, says the following w.r.t the point of "Raping slaves":
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...:Rape#Scholars

And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]... Qur'an 4:24

And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess of captives, even if they have husbands in the Abode of War, after ascertaining that they are not pregnant, by waiting for the lapse of one period of menstruation.... Qur'an 4:24

You said:

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You can google. You will find several references. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran If you want scientific proof like few atheists here, sorry there wont be any.

Using Quran to prove Quran and then you talk about "stories" in other's religions? Huh?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Coming back to your question, whatever hadiths we are seeing in that link either prophet is totally refusing or he is allowing. In you view his allowing for rape. Well lady you are misleading here. He is allowing but in lawful manner. In Islam before having intercourse person has to marry.

and where has marriage been mentioned in this Hadith?

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...isoners_of_War

The above quote says that it is lawful for them to have sex with those prisoners of wars, when their menses are over. AFAI can see there is NO talk about marriage.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Tell me one thing other than draupdi, do you have any other example specially in current world scenario, any of your friend, relative, your neighbor....? I am sure you wont find single one.

Government of India have prohibited polygamy for Hindus, anyway, and what has this to do with religion? Draupadi is a part of the Mahabharatha, that's why I gave the example. Again, you are talking about "mere mortals" and IMO diverting the topic.

A gentle reminder:
The discussion is ONLY about religion and the God's words, not about "mere mortals".

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Assume if a woman has 2 husbands and she becomes pregnant. How to decide who is his father? Both will say its mine. Or what if both says its not mine? How a lady can maintain 2 different houses same time?

DNA testing perhaps? It is a pity that the God YOU claim to be the creator of the universe, didn't think ahead of time again!

And from where comes the question of maintaining two houses? It is logical that if a woman marries 2 men, three of them can live in ONE house? Ego problems for men?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Let me tell you here one thing, dont ever associates such these acts or people to religion or tribe.

YOU started discussion w.r.t the acts of "mere mortals", I didn't. YOU stop it, so will I.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Apes slowly turned into human beings, is not fact. Its a mare theory, unproved theory.

Is Allah, proved somewhere? Isn't he a mere theory? Isn't Quran a "mere theory"? aren't both of them mere your beliefs?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I mentioned already, Average life span of females is more than that of males By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. During paediatric age however, in childhood itself a female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, there are more deaths among males as compared to the females during paediatric age. So chances of going less females is very low.

Chances ARE there, even if low or high. India already has a very low number of females and Quran has NO clause for women marrying many men! So, what about that situation?

I forgot to add the following to my ABOVE post:

Originally Posted by ShaanAli This is not in Quran nor in Hadith. Its one of fatwa issued by some mufti. Its upto you follow or not.

The following don't look like the fatwas:
http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/230/4/

Your women are like a tilth for you (where you plant seed to obtain produce), so come to your tilth as you wish, and send ahead (good issue) for (the future of) your souls. Act in due reverence for God, keeping within the bounds of piety and obedience to Him (both in your relations with your women and bringing up offspring, as in all other matters). And know that you are to meet with Him; and give glad tidings to the believers (of what they will find in His Presence).

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...ml#007.062.121

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

Yeah and if you truly believe in these books, I have some bottom land to sell you real cheap!!!!

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Its well known.

Once upon a time it was "well known" that the sun revolved around the earth, too, so I don't see how this helps.

Originally Posted by SL00b Once upon a time it was "well known" that the sun revolved around the earth, too, so I don't see how this helps.

You answered yourself. It was well know until proved scientifically. So go ahead and prove wrong (or right).

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You answered yourself. It was well know until proved scientifically. So go ahead and prove wrong (or right).

You're making the claim, so it's your job to provide proof.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You answered yourself. It was well know until proved scientifically. So go ahead and prove wrong (or right).

"It is well known" won't work, because you're using "well known" to support your own argument. For a start you could try proving that there are/were angels, that there was a jibril, that it came down to earth to verify quaran, that jibril is related to god and that there is/was a god. Which will be quite difficult (especially because it comes back to proving god's existence). Or you could accept that although it is something you believe in, there's no guarantee that it actually happened and it could possibly be just another lie/fairy tale.

By the way, if you're going to use only "tell to read the scripture" and "avoid/ignore argument completely" tactics, then you are not going to win the argument.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Then I recommend you to THINK that since Allah, the knower of all, creator of the universe, who taught babies to suck milk, humans to walk etc., why on earth did he NOT mention clearly that anyone who keeps slaves will be considered a Kafir IMMEDIATELY, since keeping slaves is inhuman?

My understanding:
World has changed, society has changed, So the term "slavery" (The state of being under the control of another person) has also changed. Its changed but didnt get vanish totally and it will never be.

Earlier salves used to employed and worked under Sun. Now employees are working in AC. You yourself will be having servant(s). Everyone working under someone. In the end are we all free? NO !! So why this is not called as inhuman working under someone. Because its been regulated. Employees have their own rights. This is all what happened during that time also. Slavery was not banned all of sudden but regulated and slaves was given rights and considered them as human being. Now there is no slavery, not in any of muslim countries. Its banned. But it got converted to employer employee relationship.

If today any country release the law that no company of that country is allowed to have any employee. What will happen. Think yourself. Looks awkward, right?
Translate same for that time. You will have answer. If still dont have answer, wait for few more days. Ask yourself from GOD.

A God which doesn't say that keeping slaves is a EXTREMELY HORRIBLE sin, isn't worth worshiping, IMHO.

There are more horrible sins exits in this earth, concentrate there also.

Merely saying that freeing a slave is considered a good deed, doesn't mean that if a Muslim keeps slaves, he will be considered a Kafir and will be thrown to hell.

Hell is not reserved only for Kafir's. If you have servant and if you dont behave properly with him/her, doors will be open for you as well, does not matter you are muslim or Kafir.

But the Quran verse 4:24, says the following w.r.t the point of "Raping slaves": http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...:Rape#Scholars You said: Using Quran to prove Quran and then you talk about "stories" in other's religions? Huh? and where has marriage been mentioned in this Hadith? http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...isoners_of_War The above quote says that it is lawful for them to have sex with those prisoners of wars, when their menses are over. AFAI can see there is NO talk about marriage.

Why are you going out of your mind. I said trice already "RAPE IS A GREAT SIN IN ISLAM".

Read my previous reply again. Any muslim can not have intercourse without legal marriage. There are lots of conditions automatically applies with that. It does not mean those conditions should be written each and every time.

Government of India have prohibited polygamy for Hindus, anyway, and what has this to do with religion? Draupadi is a part of the Mahabharatha, that's why I gave the example. Again, you are talking about "mere mortals" and IMO diverting the topic.

Did you mean, Govt of India is against Hindu's law? If so why dont you raise your voice. Do that and set an example. And let everyone know the experience of female marrying more than a man.

A gentle reminder: The discussion is ONLY about religion and the God's words, not about "mere mortals".

You can not separate human being from religion and GOD. GOD revealed religion for human beings, not for Himself or animals....

DNA testing perhaps? It is a pity that the God YOU claim to be the creator of the universe, didn't think ahead of time again!

Oops. I didn't know DNA test is available since last 1500 years.

And from where comes the question of maintaining two houses? It is logical that if a woman marries 2 men, three of them can live in ONE house? Ego problems for men?

No problem, as per your wish.

Is Allah, proved somewhere? Isn't he a mere theory? Isn't Quran a "mere theory"? aren't both of them mere your beliefs?

80% theories taken from same book can not be proved scientifically correct. (20% science either cant prove, same time cant deny).
I hope you must have heard probability. Only 10 theories itself will have just 1% chances for all being correct.
Quran is not based on theories, same like yours where normal size human being becomes giant and flown from somewhere kashmir to Srilanka holding full Himalaya mountain in his one hand because he couldn't search for some medicine in that mountain. I really dont know which family of human being we had on earth capable of doing this?
If he was not human being, he was a god, why he need medicine to cure first of all? he could cure anyone without medicine. why he couldn't search a medicine? I cant imagine a god searching a medicine on earth to cure someone. This is one small incident I remember, there are 1000 more like that.

Chances ARE there, even if low or high. India already has a very low number of females and Quran has NO clause for women marrying many men! So, what about that situation?

Quran has NO clause for women marrying many men..... Who said that?

There is clause. Its forbidden.

So muslim women wont marry more than a man in any case. But non-muslims, if they want, they can. Oh but for that in india and i believe every part of world women will have to raise their voice. They have to fight agains their country laws. Its same like what gays are doing. Women can do that same. Let countries be open for that. Let all religion have that freedom. But sorry, muslims wont be part of that. Same way as they are not part of gay/lesbian marriages.


** Sorry, I was bit harsh in responding above. I said few negative points about your religion and belief. I shouldn't do that. But you left me no option.

Originally Posted by SL00b You're making the claim, so it's your job to provide proof.

Originally Posted by SigTerm "It is well known" won't work, because you're using "well known" to support your own argument. For a start you could try proving that there are/were angels, that there was a jibril, that it came down to earth to verify quaran, that jibril is related to god and that there is/was a god. Which will be quite difficult (especially because it comes back to proving god's existence). Or you could accept that although it is something you believe in, there's no guarantee that it actually happened and it could possibly be just another lie/fairy tale. By the way, if you're going to use only "tell to read the scripture" and "avoid/ignore argument completely" tactics, then you are not going to win the argument.

So what kind of proof will be sufficient for this? Guide me please.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli So what kind of proof will be sufficient for this? Guide me please.

You'd have to prove that an Angel named Jibril/Gabriel existed, and that he visited the earth, and verified the authenticity of the Koran more than once, from other historical sources. The sources would have to be authoritative (first-person accounts, not a retelling of common traditions or Koranic commentaries), and they can't be from the Koran (because obviously the Koran cannot verify the authenticity of the Koran, circular logic). Ideally, at least one source would be a non-Muslim, for credibility.

Any physical evidence of Jibril's visits would be awesome as well. For instance, if Jibril were to have brought artifacts of non-earthly origin, those could be examined and tested. That would have been a perfect way for God to have established credibility for his message for all time, so he must have sent something, right?