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Old 11-08-2011, 11:57 PM   #3736
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
So your whole basis not to believe the goodness of God is because he allows suffering, or because he allows evil? Either way your position doesn't resolve.

Permission of suffering or evil does not equate to the being who permits it being evil any more than disciplining or punishing children makes a person a bad parent; or any more than planned birth of a child despite a fallen world makes parents irresponsible.
Don't you think there is a difference in punishing your children and do things like your god seems to do, like making people be born handicapped, killing thousands in natural disasters, sending them to eternal punishment in hell for some little misbehaviors, ... ?
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:21 AM   #3737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Don't you think there is a difference in punishing your children and do things like your god seems to do, like making people be born handicapped, killing thousands in natural disasters, sending them to eternal punishment in hell for some little misbehaviors, ... ?
Or those who are born while god knows that they will be raped, or killed, or be a victim of SIDS, or many other things. What about places like Africa, where folks are born without ever being told about god, forced to do labor for no money, while diseases like AIDS run rampant, and warlords rape and pillage towns, killing people by the thousands every day? And those people, who never heard about god, and were killed meaninglessly, are damned to hell, as they never believed (or even had a chance to believe) in a religion that has only been around for the last 20XX years.

Thousands of years ago, people attributed everything they couldnt explain to 'gods'. Thats why the ancient Egyptians had a sun god, a rain god, a god of the river Nile, a goddess of fertility, etc etc. Nowadays we understand that the Sun is a star, not unlike many others throughout the universe. We know that rain is not caused by a god, but by the water cycle. We can see how human life is conceived, by the union of sperm and egg, not by the gift of a goddess at who's altar you left a bounty of fresh fruit. A big issue is, that as long as these religions were in place, nobody did any research into the topics attributed to 'god' because of superstition and fear. Its a blanket statement that negates intelligent thought. Isn't it a bit childish to nowadays attribute the development of species to a 'god', and ignore scientific study and theory on the matter? How are we learning from the mistakes of the past when we are still ignoring research in place of superstition?
 
Old 11-09-2011, 03:46 AM   #3738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Don't you think there is a difference in punishing your children and do things like your god seems to do, like making people be born handicapped, killing thousands in natural disasters, sending them to eternal punishment in hell for some little misbehaviors, ... ?
Indeed it is absolutely unacceptable. If there were a god, I would like to talk to him ... and when he shows up, I'll kill him.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:15 AM   #3739
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God is an hypocrite. He's guilty of some of the sins he condemns us for committing. Pride: he thinks he's superior to all the other deities. Envy: he keeps telling us he's a jealous god. Lust: he got a girl pregnant. Stealing: she was already betrothed to someone else. Murder: encouraging and aiding in the slaughter of his chosen people's enemies. Do you really want to worship THAT?
P.S.
Wrath, too: he seems in dire need of anger management counselling. And there's that inciting Lot's daughters to incest, as well. Sick.

Last edited by brianL; 11-09-2011 at 05:48 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 06:17 AM   #3740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
So your whole basis not to believe the goodness of God is because he allows suffering, or because he allows evil? Either way your position doesn't resolve.
Both! He created both of them, that's what you don't seem to realize.
He created the devil knowing beforehand what the consequences would be. Next he created us and dumped us directly into the hand of this "evil being".
This is akin to you locking a toddler in a cage with a rabid wolf and then standing back and watching: you not only know what the outcome will be (but do nothing to prevent it), but you are a sadist for creating that situation in the first place.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 08:03 AM   #3741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
The fact is this--the angelic world has a much freer will than we humans. Latin applies the name "Lucifer," to the angel that chose to take his liberty to defy God. That angel's future is sealed. He is condemned to hell.

Having less freedom of will than the angels is not so bad considering God provides Christ to redeem fallen man (but not the angels). Each will fall, but a remnant will reap the benefit of Christ's death and resurrection.

Evil in the spiritual world is the product of the fallen angels. Evil in the human world is the combined consequence of fallen angels and fallen humanity.

I have answered your question.
You have not addressed the question.

Evil and suffering cannot exist in a world with just, loving, omnipresent, omnitpotent and omniscient god. Because such god by definition, knows about evil/suffering (omniscient), wills to get rid of it (loving), has the absolute power to do it (omnipotent), knows how to do it (omniscient), is obliged to do it (just), can predict the future(omniscient) and is everywhere(omnipresent). Fallen angels cannot exist in a world with such deity - it would mean god is not omnipotent. Your definition of god is written in bible. Evil/suffering exists. Conclusion: bible lies, and there is no omnipotent, just, loving and omniscient god.

If you're truly a christian and not some kind of random troll, I suggest to stop being coward. Every damn time when somebody ask you a difficult question, you run away. Every damn time somebody presents you evidence you asked for, you refuse to look at it. What are you afraid of? If you want to brainwash people instead of discussing - go somewhere else. Problem of evil has been discovered 300 BC, your religion had at least 2000 years to address it. If you can't address it and have no proof for your religion, you can simply admit it.

P.S. On related note, here's "The Emperor of the Universe" webcomic - as an example of "non-omnipresent", "unjust" and "non-omniscient" ruler.

Last edited by SigTerm; 11-09-2011 at 08:06 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 08:37 AM   #3742
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A perfect world would make no sense imho, where would be the fun in that

Seriously, I don't think there is a rational logic behind putting images on good or bad things, it may just help somes to make some sense on personal experience

Last edited by Cedrik; 11-09-2011 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 09:16 AM   #3743
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3613 posts... wow, and still everyone trying to convince others...,

something would change if god (her/him)self would post something :-)
 
Old 11-09-2011, 10:51 AM   #3744
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Here's a nice summarization of problem of evil. Reed9 provided another link in #3541.

As far as I can tell, there is no solution to this problem, which means it disproves any religion that claims their god to be omnipotent, omniscient, just and loving.

Last edited by SigTerm; 11-09-2011 at 10:52 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:13 AM   #3745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Don't you think there is a difference in punishing your children and do things like your god seems to do, like making people be born handicapped, killing thousands in natural disasters, sending them to eternal punishment in hell for some little misbehaviors, ... ?
1) The creation is replete with examples of courageous people who happen to have been born or who became disabled, who've made tremendous contributions to society, and especially the kingdom of God. Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles both lost their vision in childhood and yet, made history a little more beautiful. Helen Keller. And a modern day hero to many people today, David Ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMuXrLvWEsI

2) What's the difference between dying by a natural disaster or by any other means? Death is appointed once for each of us. Dying is a fact of life, a direct consequence of universal human sin.

3) Hell is not appointed to anyone by God. Hell is by human choice. If people reject the mercy of God, dying in their sin and defiance, that's their own fault. If a person wants to have nothing to do with heaven, that's their prerogative. We all have a deadline, by which each of us has a very simple duty--to accept the grace and love and forgiveness and salvation of God that comes through the death, burial and resurrection of his Son, Jesus. Christ defeated death and hell for every human, but if a person rejects his free gift they have no valid excuse or plea at the judgment.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:28 AM   #3746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
1) The creation is replete with examples of courageous people who happen to have been born or who became disabled, who've made tremendous contributions to society, and especially the kingdom of God. Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles both lost their vision in childhood and yet, made history a little more beautiful. Helen Keller. And a modern day hero to many people today, David Ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMuXrLvWEsI
Does not justify loss of vision. According to your faith god has the power to let the person live without disability and still same contributions to society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
2) What's the difference between dying by a natural disaster or by any other means?
Because according to your faith natural disasters are acts of god will. God is omniscient, so it means it willingly kills people by his own choice, including children, newborn and unborn. How can you justify death of a child? Or how can you justify death of child's parents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Dying is a fact of life, a direct consequence of universal human sin.
According to your faith, everything originates from god, including sin. According to your faith the god created people and MADE them to be able to sin.

This does not address the "problem of evil". Do yourself a favor, and read existing counterarguments to common defenses against "problem of evil".

Last edited by SigTerm; 11-09-2011 at 11:31 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:31 AM   #3747
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It would be a wonderful thing to be able to make a career out of this kind of discussion, but the world doesn't work that way. And I know the most vocal ones here will count this as evasion, or neglect of duty, but the truth is I have work to do that really is my duty. You ask a lot of questions that I just don't have time to answer. So let me answer once by quoting my chief counselor:

Quote:
All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD (YHWH) laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:43 AM   #3748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Contendersóshow me something new in nature besides the discovery itself, and besides the inventions & conveniences of humanity. Show me that, and sure, I'll go along with your favoritesóDarwin or Dawkins, or whoever. Until then, rest assured, Christ is our maker.
I answered that with links to sites that show you evidences of observed evolution, in laboratory AND nature. Waiting for an answer here, doubting that you will ever address it. By the way, I prefer Dawkins.

Quote:
Hell is not appointed to anyone by God. Hell is by human choice. If people reject the mercy of God, dying in their sin and defiance, that's their own fault.
You still don't get it. I reject your god, and if he exists and is omniscient than he would have known that I will reject him long before he even created the universe. Nonetheless he created it and made up mankind in an imperfect way, created a trap for them (don't forget that he know beforehand that they would eat the fruit, you know, omniscient), threw them out of the Garden of Eden, set up some rules for them that he himself didn't even think about to follow, showed his true face with slaughtering men, women, children (even unborn children), and if we refuse to believe that he is a benevolent one and don't want to obey him he sends us to hell for eternal punishment. Do you really believe that such a being is benevolent (if it even exists, which still has to be proven)?

Or in short: You still fail to give an answer to any serious question that was addressed to you. Instead of that you come up with trying to discuss other things (although you obviously lack knowledge of the things you try to discuss) after being silent for some time (obviously in hope that we forget that you still have not answered to the questions). This is annoying and damages your image and the image of your religion.
Come up with answers asked to you before challenging people on a different topic (and the not answering to the responses).
 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:53 AM   #3749
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
And I know the most vocal ones here will count this as evasion, or neglect of duty, but the truth is I have work to do that really is my duty.
Excuses, Excuses. You should have thought about that BEFORE trying to use this forum to "prove jesus". If you have enough time to embark upon this kind of mission on the internet, then you have enough time to address the questions people ask to you in return. Besides, you came back to this forum multiple times in order to start another religious argument. Which means you DO have time necessary to address every counterargument, especially to answer something as old as "problem of evil".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
You ask a lot of questions that I just don't have time to answer.
You had time to write this reply, so you have time to answer. You already had almost a month to think about the answer, so "I don't have a time" is not going to work. You had enough time, and if you have enough free time to post "anti-evolution" thread in general, then you have enough time to answer question asked a month ago.

To me it looks like you simply don't HAVE the answer (possibly because you've never given your religion much of a thought) and now are trying to come up with "honorable" excuse for that - in order to "save face". That's not going to work. Problem of evil is an ancient one, if there's an answer for it, you should have known it - as a devout christian. No excuses are acceptable - if you couldn't give any answer after a month, then you don't have it. Besides, this isn't the first question you dodge, so excuses are not acceptable anymore.

If you don't have the answer to the "problem of evil" and can't prove the christianity, then simply openly admit it and people will leave you alone (as long as you won't try to "prove jesus" while being unable to deal with counterarguments again). You can believe whatever you want. However, if you want to convince other people that your belief is "the truth", then it is another story - you'll have to defend it.

Last edited by SigTerm; 11-09-2011 at 11:58 AM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:21 PM   #3750
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
It would be a wonderful thing to be able to make a career out of this kind of discussion, but the world doesn't work that way. And I know the most vocal ones here will count this as evasion, or neglect of duty, but the truth is I have work to do that really is my duty. You ask a lot of questions that I just don't have time to answer. So let me answer once by quoting my chief counselor:
Perhaps that's something to keep in mind before you start a new thread inciting other forum members with crap arguments you have already used in the past.
I've lost count of the number of times you've turned tail and run away from the discussion, so I'll be ignoring any of your future posts since your behaviour is childish/trollish.
 
  


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