How can i install Wayland on Slackware?

pghvlaans · 04-23-2021, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg

Please verify what X server you are running in fact

Certainly.

Quote:

X.Org X Server 1.20.11
X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
Build Operating System: Slackware 15.0 Slackware Linux Project
Current Operating System: Linux ambiorix.localdomain 5.11.16 #1 SMP Wed Apr 21 13:40:37 CDT 2021 x86_64
Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-generic root=/dev/nvme0n1p4
Build Date: 13 April 2021 12:31:51PM

Current version of pixman: 0.40.0
Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
to make sure that you have the latest version.
Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
(==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Sat Apr 24 02:06:06 2021
(==) Using config directory: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d"
(==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d"

Everything after that is just loading fcitx.

LuckyCyborg · 04-23-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pghvlaans

Certainly.

Everything after that is just loading fcitx.

So, what says "ps xa | grep X" ?

pghvlaans · 04-23-2021, 12:15 PM

Ah, thanks for that.

Quote:

[carlson@ambiorix ~]$ ps xa | grep X
1991 tty1 S+ 0:00 xinit Xwayland
1992 tty7 Ssl+ 0:05 /usr/libexec/Xorg :0
2054 ? SN 0:00 /usr/bin/fcitx-dbus-watcher unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-ofCXB6MSgc,guid=39c2f1c6a0e64f401a6fb4d86082ffb9 2050
2443 pts/0 S+ 0:00 grep X
[carlson@ambiorix ~]$

LuckyCyborg · 04-23-2021, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pghvlaans

Ah, thanks for that.

Code:

[carlson@ambiorix ~]$ ps xa | grep X
1991 tty1 S+ 0:00 xinit Xwayland
1992 tty7 Ssl+ 0:05 /usr/libexec/Xorg :0
2054 ? SN 0:00 /usr/bin/fcitx-dbus-watcher unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-ofCXB6MSgc,guid=39c2f1c6a0e64f401a6fb4d86082ffb9 2050
2443 pts/0 S+ 0:00 grep X
[carlson@ambiorix ~]$

Your real X server is Xorg, on display :0 and console tty7 - the Xwayland does NOT appear running.

So your DE does not run on Xwayland but in the stock Xorg. How did you managed that, on your customized installation, you know...

pghvlaans · 04-23-2021, 12:32 PM

No idea. I'll look into it sometime before Xorg stops getting security patches. As someone in his early 30s, it'll be a nice project to do with my grandchildren someday.

LuckyCyborg · 04-23-2021, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pghvlaans

No idea. I'll look into it sometime before Xorg stops getting security patches. As someone in his early 30s, it'll be a nice project to do with my grandchildren someday.

I bet that your granchildren will never see a X server...

Quote:

on abandoning the X server

There's been some recent discussion about whether the X server is abandonware. As the person arguably most responsible for its care and feeding over the last 15 years or so, I feel like I have something to say about that.

The thing about being the maintainer of a public-facing project for nearly the whole of your professional career is it's difficult to separate your own story from the project. So I'm not going to try to be dispassionate, here. I started working on X precisely because free software had given me options and capabilities that really matter, and I feel privileged to be able to give that back. I can't talk about that without caring about it.

So here's the thing: X works extremely well for what it is, but what it is is deeply flawed. There's no shame in that, it's 33 years old and still relevant, I wish more software worked so well on that kind of timeframe. But using it to drive your display hardware and multiplex your input devices is choosing to make your life worse.

It is, however, uniquely well suited to a very long life as an application compatibility layer. Though the code happens to implement an unfortunate specification, the code itself is quite well structured, easy to hack on, and not far off from being easily embeddable.

The issue, then, is how to get there. And I don't have any real desire to get there while still pretending that the xfree86 hardware-backed server code is a real thing. Sorry, I guess, but I've worked on xfree86-derived servers for very nearly as long as XFree86-the-project existed, and I am completely burnt out on that on its own merits, let alone doing that and also being release manager and reviewer of last resort. You can only apply so much thrust to the pig before you question why you're trying to make it fly at all.

So, is Xorg abandoned? To the extent that that means using it to actually control the display, and not just keep X apps running, I'd say yes. But xserver is more than xfree86. Xwayland, Xwin, Xephyr, Xvnc, Xvfb: these are projects with real value that we should not give up. A better way to say it is that we can finally abandon xfree86.

And if that sounds like a world you'd like to see, please, come talk to us, let's make it happen. I'd be absolutely thrilled to see someone take this on, and I'm happy to be your guide through the server internals.

https://ajaxnwnk.blogspot.com/2020/1...-x-server.html

Quote:

The main worry I have is that xserver is abandonware without even regular releases from the main branch. That's why we had to blacklist X. Without someone caring I think there's just largely downsides to enabling features.

Also there's zero technical reasons why modifiers are tied to atomic in -modesetting, at least as long as everything is disabled by default.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/...33#note_670522

When the Xorg developers says that they will abandon it soon, I will wonder of how long those security patches will be available?

igadoter · 04-23-2021, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pghvlaans

No idea. I'll look into it sometime before Xorg stops getting security patches. As someone in his early 30s, it'll be a nice project to do with my grandchildren someday.

Xorg does not have 30 years. It is a fork form XFree86 - some things inside XFree86 are under patents. You can find story on internet. Slackware 9.1 was using XFree86. These two X servers at some points behave differently. At the beginning Xorg was terrible - I always switched to XFree86. You should try XFree86 to have idea what really X Windows server is. Xorg is just very stripped down version. Try this: start Xorg start twm and inside twm session start Plasma desktop. Someone sometime ago decided that pc user does not need fully featured X server. Now we all pay for this. Today people are excited about rpd or vnc - but from design it was already present in X Server. X Windows is great system - and there people who are not willing to accept responsibility for it poor Linux implementation. That's the story. As many other stories about solutions in Unix - abandoned or poorly implemented in Linux - and sometimes reinvented - with great noise about how Linux is fantastic. This is totally unprofessional behavior. Just PR.

pghvlaans · 04-24-2021, 03:23 AM

Yeah, I know it doesn't have 30 years; that was a joke. This discussion did motivate me to finally work out an acceptable sway configuration, just in case!

Regnad Kcin · 04-24-2021, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg

Well, is enough to google for "wayland nvidia" to find tons of scary stories about this unfortunate combination.
Because the NVIDIA do not bothered to support seriously anything else than X11 on Linux and the Nouveau thing is still a joke.
Anyway, you can try to enable "modesetting" on NVIDIA's DRM, adding a file /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-drm.conf with the content:

Code:

options nvidia-drm modeset=1

It's a requirement for Wayland on NVIDIA graphics.
Then, IF you are really really lucky, after reboot you will get a functional Wayland/Plasma5 .

Thanks, it amazingly did indeed start but does not result in a functional system and generates tonnes of errors. One is glad for the reset button. I must say I am totally underwhelmed by wayland and i see no cause for all the buzz.

LuckyCyborg · 04-24-2021, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

Thanks, it amazingly did indeed start but does not result in a functional system and generates tonnes of errors. One is glad for the reset button. I must say I am totally underwhelmed by wayland and i see no cause for all the buzz.

Well, in fact the Wayland/Plasma5 works very well on Slackware-current, and on openSUSE, and it and Ubuntu has a fine Wayland/Gnome3 and also Fedora and RHEL has fine support for Wayland desktops. BUT not on NVIDIA graphics.

The fact that you are unable to use Wayland/Plasma5 is because you are literally a hostage of the NVIDIA Corp. decisions to support ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY the X11 on Linux - not even the KMS. Literally, this is nothing else than sabotage from their part.

Look at your "fine" Wayland/Plasma5 desktop experienced today - this is the future of your experience with graphical environments on Linux, unless you will chose another company for your graphics cards.

rkelsen · 04-24-2021, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg

The fact that you are unable to use Wayland/Plasma5 is because you are literally a hostage of the NVIDIA Corp. decisions to support ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY the X11 on Linux - not even the KMS. Literally, this is nothing else than sabotage from their part.

As if they care. Their products are selling like crazy right now. People are paying over inflated prices on the second hand market as well. They don't really need to support Linux.

Pithium · 04-24-2021, 08:47 PM

I'd just like to point out that every wayland implementation I've come across seems great for the first 2 minutes. That's usually the point at which I run into some major issue with a feature that works under X. At the end of the day it has to work. If basic features are broken and/or missing then nothing else really matters. If I live to see the day that wayland based desktops achieve functionality equivalent to X, I will consider it as a replacement. If and When.

Also, wayland not faster than X. Desktop effects under kwin/wayland make me feel like I'm playing quake3 at 30FPS. Sluggish and annoying, but of course not everyone is going to notice and it's entirely possible that 30 years from now I won't notice either.

ZhaoLin1457 · 04-24-2021, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pithium

I'd just like to point out that every wayland implementation I've come across seems great for the first 2 minutes. That's usually the point at which I run into some major issue with a feature that works under X. At the end of the day it has to work. If basic features are broken and/or missing then nothing else really matters. If I live to see the day that wayland based desktops achieve functionality equivalent to X, I will consider it as a replacement. If and When.

When you did this test of Wayland/Plasma5?

I ask this because not so long ago, the Wayland/Plasma5 got some solid improvements on its setup, to which the humble me contributed too.

And what "feature" you find that does not work, compared with X11/Plasma5?

Looks like that some people acts just like someone who after marrying the sister of his ex-wife, expects the same cooking habits on his house.

Wayland and X11 are different things, each one with its features, quirks and caveats, and even the same desktop cannot behave equally on both of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pithium

Also, wayland not faster than X. Desktop effects under kwin/wayland make me feel like I'm playing quake3 at 30FPS. Sluggish and annoying, but of course not everyone is going to notice and it's entirely possible that 30 years from now I won't notice either.

You are kind to explain too on what graphics card you did those tests and more about context?

For me, the Wayland behaves way better than X11, and I have a mini-PC with a 2W rated CPU: Atom x5-Z8350 and graphics of measure.

Pithium · 04-24-2021, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZhaoLin1457

When you did this test of Wayland/Plasma5?

I ask this because not so long ago, the Wayland/Plasma5 got some solid improvements on its setup, to which the humble me contributed too.

And what "feature" you find that does not work, compared with X11/Plasma5?

You aren't wrong about people having harsh opinions, so I'll list a few things. Note that I don't test it every time the new version comes out so I could be out of date.

Little things like:
- qtvirtualkeyboard (completely broken on wayland, mostly working on X)
- assorted widget issues (see below)
- settings not synchronizing correctly between kwin-X11 and kwin-wayland
- sluggish rendering. I'm not sure if this is a side effect of some sort of vsync calculation or if the default timings for desktop effects are just bad.

The widget issues thing is sporadic and changes from one version to the next. Since wayland seems to dramatically change how keyboard/mouse input and display dimensions are handled there are a lot of minor issues that pop up where functionality that used to exist is either missing, or acts different. TBH the reason I make no attempt to record or reproduce such glitchy behavior is largely a result of the toxic behavior surrounding wayland. X works, and if wayland people are gonna be whiney then I just don't care.

I'm due for another test since I'm trying to get kde working as a mobile interface for my tablet. Unfortunately the qtvirtualkeyboard issues are a massive problem for this project. I want to use wayland since the one thing it seems to actually improve is global desktop scaling and that is mandatory for this tablet.

Regnad Kcin · 04-24-2021, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg

Well, in fact the Wayland/Plasma5 works very well on Slackware-current, and on openSUSE, and it and Ubuntu has a fine Wayland/Gnome3 and also Fedora and RHEL has fine support for Wayland desktops. BUT not on NVIDIA graphics. The fact that you are unable to use Wayland/Plasma5 is because you are literally a hostage of the NVIDIA Corp. decisions to support ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY the X11 on Linux - not even the KMS. Literally, this is nothing else than sabotage from their part. Look at your "fine" Wayland/Plasma5 desktop experienced today - this is the future of your experience with graphical environments on Linux, unless you will chose another company for your graphics cards.

My invidious NVIDIA card does what an addicted oxygen (O2) hostage like me needs. I can run 4 monitors at once, do meetings online and live in person with my graphics pad flawlessly in Linux and in Win10. Surely the Wayland crowd ought to have some small percentage of a clue that a lot of us do have and use daily NVIDIA graphics cards. Surely the developers of Wayland ought to be able to see what it is that X is doing to support NVIDIA. It makes no sense for me to revert my hardware to meet the needs of a sub-alpha level software project. What for Wayland and Why? Wayland seems like the wrong way to me and suspiciously like one of those dead end streets.