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Old 12-15-2015, 07:28 PM   #16
JJJCR
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Copy and pasted from github...

Is that something very bad to do? Do you mean that the scripts you have written is 100 percent genuine and it's not someone else idea?

Last edited by JJJCR; 12-15-2015 at 07:28 PM. Reason: edit
 
Old 12-16-2015, 07:54 AM   #17
rtmistler
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I agree with sundialsvcs's point that Linux doesn't really have a broad program of mentorship. It also doesn't have standard tools that are widely agreed upon. Yes, GCC is there, I'm not going to argue if it is the defacto set of tools, but unlike Visual Studio or Xcode it's not very high up the food chain as an IDE.

Sorry, I'm not a sys admin, so my take is I do see a great deal of RHCE stuff and it wants to make me wretch, but to give RedHat credit, they live in the OS, they do develop the OS, and then they provide certification, but for their systems people.

Be nicer if there was an R&D equivalent, or at least commercial toolkits, worthy of our dislike as some people would say about the Microsoft tools or standard MAC tools. I'm partially joking, but also not. People will also insult Microsoft's tools or Apple's tools, but I say because they are the largest. I'll agree that they mess it up by re-architecting their APIs and so forth, making the developers mad, but ultimately the produce, distribute, and support (somewhat) their tools. There is not a Linux equivalent.
 
Old 12-16-2015, 08:21 AM   #18
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szboardstretcher View Post
This is a completely subjective thought on my part. I have noticed here at LQ, and even at my job, that people who say things like "Yeah, I've used Linux for years" generally are horrible at using Linux.

Here at LQ, there are at least 5 current posts where someone is claiming that their title is something on the order of "Linux System Engineer" or "Linux Admin" or similar, and each one of those people is looking for help on how to write a script - and not even attempting it on their own.

Here at my shop, I have a kid that has more experience at Burger King than he does in systems administration, but he sells himself in his resume as a "Senior Linux Administrator" but he is unable to tell me the difference between systemd and sys-v. Apparently he has used Linux for years (Ubuntu) and has written many scripts (Copy and pasted from github).

It just seems like the over all ... education? ... of Linux people is on the decline, especially people who would call themselves experts or engineers.
I disagree about the education part. This is mainly because I have known people who have NO 'certifications', degrees, or other formal training who are OUTSTANDING in what they do. And I also know many weapons-grade morons who have a string of letters after their names. And this is not just limited to Linux folks, although I think we're seeing it more since there is a large part of the world that will only hire people with 'certs', regardless of how they're attained. And with the growing popularity of Linux, and its adoption on more and more devices, more and more programmers/support folks are needed.

My belief? It's ACCOUNTABILITY. These people who say "I have xxx certification....", are rarely ever asked to SHOW their knowledge. So, they get jobs with titles that reflect what they SHOULD know. This rolls around to what I've said for years; DO NOT GIVE HANDOUTS, EVER. If someone is genuinely stuck, and shows their efforts, I'll gladly bend over backwards to try to help them. Someone saying "Plz to giving links for red hat" or "I need a script for xxx", and showing no effort, should shortly be shown the DOOR, until they get the message. That's the only way to get people to stand on their own.

I've never understood the logic of people who will hand someone a script, thinking they're doing a good thing. 99% of the time, they'll only come back looking for more, rather than applying the example they were given. Until the cycle is broken, it will never stop. Part of my interviewing process is putting someone in a lab with NO internet access (and no phones/tablets/etc.), and giving them tasks that they should be able to accomplish. Even if they FAIL on some of the tasks, I judge the effort and their thinking behind it, more than the result. Syntax for things can often trip you up, and we can all use a visit to the docs every now and then, but if I see a program that shows EFFORT, with the explanation of "I got to this part, and everything is fine judging by the output, but I can't remember how to do xxx next, which is what I needed to finish..", I'll know that person is going to have promise.

And I've had people with 'certs' come in, and be unable to modify a grub statement, not know how to get to single-user mode from X, nor how to add a new user, who then whine about "Well, I COULD have looked this up!!" Sorry...don't let the door hit you on the way out.....
 
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:59 AM   #19
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You know the sad thing is TB0ne that I have never had a Linux job and I currently have no certifications yet I could do everything you stated in your posting without access to the internet.... I find it amusing that some with certs couldn't do this. But I am not surprised either. There has been many occasions that I have had to deal with windows admins that couldn't do basic tasks or deal with DBA admins that get confused when i tell them to open Access... like your a DBA admin and you don't know where to find MS ACCESS in program files.....

Just because people can pass tests does not show knowledge of the subject experience is always a better in my opinion but also cannot be taken at face value. I currently am called a Desktop Administrator I am vastly underutilized at my current job and when I attempt to bring up improvements or use software that wont cost us money no one listens. There just seams to be a culture that has developed in the IT world that is sadly getting worse that is more tool then people oriented. Its odd because even when its not the cheepest option they still opt to spend money rather then just changing a simple way work is performed.....

I have never had issues with users that are willing to learn or are willing to make an effort to find the solution they need somewhere but I don't normally waste time on users that just want to "make it go".
 
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:13 PM   #20
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exvor View Post
You know the sad thing is TB0ne that I have never had a Linux job and I currently have no certifications yet I could do everything you stated in your posting without access to the internet.... I find it amusing that some with certs couldn't do this.
That's EXACTLY my point! It IS sad, but you also probably looked up how to do these things, and took the knowledge to heart. I knew a guy at a company I worked at years ago, who would take practice tests/dumps until he could *BARELY* squeak out a passing score, then take the exam...which the company would pay for. So, if you looked at his resume, he had about seven 'certifications', but was dumb as a bag of hammers. He would ask EVERYONE around him about the simplest of tasks, constantly. He left and got another job, where he was let go after about a month, because he couldn't demonstrate that knowledge, and his new co-workers (at a smaller company), wouldn't babysit him.
Quote:
But I am not surprised either. There has been many occasions that I have had to deal with windows admins that couldn't do basic tasks or deal with DBA admins that get confused when i tell them to open Access... like your a DBA admin and you don't know where to find MS ACCESS in program files.....

Just because people can pass tests does not show knowledge of the subject experience is always a better in my opinion but also cannot be taken at face value. I currently am called a Desktop Administrator I am vastly underutilized at my current job and when I attempt to bring up improvements or use software that wont cost us money no one listens. There just seams to be a culture that has developed in the IT world that is sadly getting worse that is more tool then people oriented. Its odd because even when its not the cheepest option they still opt to spend money rather then just changing a simple way work is performed.....

I have never had issues with users that are willing to learn or are willing to make an effort to find the solution they need somewhere but I don't normally waste time on users that just want to "make it go".
Absolutely. Anyone willing to learn and APPLY what they know going forward should always get help...we've all needed it. But anyone who is lazy enough to not even TRY to find an answer on their own should be LEFT on their own, until they grow up and act like an adult. Stand on your own...being confused is part of learning. Asking questions about things at least shows you're TRYING.
 
Old 12-16-2015, 02:31 PM   #21
fu9ar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exvor View Post
Its odd because even when its not the cheepest option they still opt to spend money rather then just changing a simple way work is performed.....

I have never had issues with users that are willing to learn or are willing to make an effort to find the solution they need somewhere but I don't normally waste time on users that just want to "make it go".
Organizations see training costs as an expensive risk and many organizations have a conservative culture. Workflow changes come with monetary costs. Many people have trouble with changes to their workflow...

Most workers can't be relied upon to just figure it out.
 
Old 12-17-2015, 09:36 PM   #22
frankbell
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I have found that people are people just about wherever you go.

Most of them are okay and a few of them make you want to unspeakable things to yourself or, more likely, to them.

Back when I used to train supervisors, I would talk to them about a mathematical constant in managing people: K sub i, the Idiocy Constant in human nature. Wherever you are, a certain percentage of the persons you have to deal with will be idiots. If you can't handle that, I would tell them, you won't cut it as a supervisor.
 
Old 12-20-2015, 11:57 AM   #23
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
I have found that people are people just about wherever you go.

Most of them are okay and a few of them make you want to unspeakable things to yourself or, more likely, to them.

Back when I used to train supervisors, I would talk to them about a mathematical constant in managing people: K sub i, the Idiocy Constant in human nature. Wherever you are, a certain percentage of the persons you have to deal with will be idiots. If you can't handle that, I would tell them, you won't cut it as a supervisor.
Agreed..that principle holds true everywhere. But I also believe that people will try to rise as high as your expectations...I don't expect people to be perfect, but I do expect them to show effort.

Yes, you're going to be saddled with idiots no matter where you go. Coddling said idiots, and giving them an environment in which to hide, does an organization no good. Can't do the job? Please, enjoy this monogrammed cardboard box with our compliments, so your personal effects can make it to your car in good condition.
 
Old 12-21-2015, 01:32 PM   #24
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I'm not an admin and I don't play one on TV.

I don't know poop from squat. But I can figure out how to build, fix or repair anything. I'm a mechanic, in the truest sense of the word, even though I've never done it as a job.

When I was 12 I became the new shop teacher's assistant. The old shop teacher had left everything to fall apart. 1/2 the machines didn't work. I never did a wood working project that year. But I got A's for two classes: 1 in shop and 1 as assistant b/c I fixed all the machines and showed everybody else how to build checker boards and bird houses.

I've been in to 'puters my whole life. I grew up playing in the lab of a computer engineer who was like Einstein, spooky smart. I'm not bad at chess. I was middle ranked in my state in high school. This guy could free hand design an industrial controller with his right hand while simultaneously completely skunking me at chess with his left hand.

I'm not at his level. But I learned a lot from him.

I was a T1 for Microsoft for two years. I was all excited about it at first b/c I talked my way in the door on a GED with no experience.

I went through 6 interviews that were each successively more technical. No net connections, no hands on, no being able to see or touch stuff; just answering questions. The last one was three hours of being grilled by the two ladies who were the direct supervisors for the department. In a lot of areas I had to tell them basically IDK that yet, but I can learn it.

After they hired me I was happy that I was going to be able to turn my life long hobby in to my career. I thought it was funny that I was literally the only guy in the room that didn't have at least a 4 year degree. I also thought that it was funny that within 90 days I made "senior" tech and had all these kids with degrees expecting me to TS their cases for them through internal chat wile I was on the phone w/ my calls. Even funnier was when some T3 guy w/ 3-12 degrees behind his name on lync would call me up and ask me how to RDP from his home machine to his office terminal. Or some dev would call me b/c his visual studio crashed and he had no idea of even the basics of data recovery and wanted to get his project back. I know nobody can possibly know everything. And I dang sure don't. But I always wondered how some guy who has to call me to have me walk him through the control panel to change the default display got a job making 6x what I did?

It was fun for a while. Then I saw how they treated us. They basically worked us like dogs and treated us like crap. Our annualized turn over rate was in excess of 150 percent; despite the fact that we were actually one of the highest paying shops in the area. And from all of the people who washed through to and from other shops around town I picked up that we actually had it pretty good compared to most.

I ended up leaving that job due to illness. I'm doing well enough now to go back to work after being out about 6 months. But I can't find anybody to hire me. I'm stuck talking to recruiters who know even less poop from squat than I do, I give them the correct answer, they're too stupid to know it and I get passed over. Or, I make it to the second interview where the person with a clue tells me that I'm over qualified for T1. (That's another one of those things I don't get: How can I be *over* qualified? I have a friggin GED!) So I come back for a third interview where I get told I'm not qualified enough for T2 (well, DUH!) and I get dropped like a hot rock.

So, at this point, it's starting look like I'm going to have to go to the local community college and get an AAS based on a doze server cert, a *nix server cert and CCNA so I can get the frig back to work as T2!

Not sure how that relates to your original question? Just a rant from one of the peons in the trenches.

Last edited by Steven_G; 12-21-2015 at 01:48 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2015, 05:16 PM   #25
sundialsvcs
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Recruiters do "blacklist" people, and they know precious-little about the qualifications that they are supposed to be recruiting for.

What I'd suggest doing is contacting your former employer. Call your former manager, and have a chat. First of all, s/he might hire you back. Or, she might know of another opening in the same company. It's certainly easiest to "bloom where you are/were planted."

Failing that, s/he can act as a recent reference, who not only can attest to your qualifications but who can confirm that you left your employ due to illness. Ask for leads or referrals. "Everybody knows everybody" in this business ...
 
Old 12-22-2015, 06:19 AM   #26
rtmistler
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Recruiters do "blacklist" people, and they know precious-little about the qualifications that they are supposed to be recruiting for.
Really?

Do tell how I manage that feat?!? People call me for these general purpose matches and leave these run on messages, send email, then call me back and complain that I haven't gotten back to them!

After initial "non-contact" (I never talk to any recruiters), in all following messages they act like my best friend and say that they're just checking on my status.

I'd be thrilled if they'd stop that.

I'm not trying to blow any horn, I figure anyone out there for significant time and the right words on their resume or LinkedIn profile garners similar attention. Sort of a cost of being competent.

And my favorite has always been the guy who left a message saying "tick pip" about 8 times. I listened to it once or twice wondering what the bleep he was talking about. His email included the job description, where I discovered he meant "TCP/IP". I'm just glad like IGMP wasn't in there, he might've hurt himself trying to speak it.
 
Old 12-22-2015, 07:20 AM   #27
sundialsvcs
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Recruiting is basically a search-engine. Recruiters want to sell your resume to someone else for a profit. If your resume looks salable, they won't let you alone. If not, they won't call you and they won't refer you. Some, but not all, companies do their hiring only through recruiters. If you find yourself on a "do not call" list, it can be icy cold.

And so, part of the problem being discussed in this thread is caused by the fact that many recruiters aren't technical at all. They really do not understand what they are selling, nor who/what they are selling it to. Unlike, say, a real-estate agent, there are no licenses or certifications involved in being a recruiter.

And as I have also said, there are no licenses or certifications involved in being a computer programmer. You must have a state-issued license to be a low-voltage lighting contractor, but not to write software.

Although recruiters seem to make it "easy" to get a job, you'll think quite differently if you ever find yourself on the other side of "the desk."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-22-2015 at 07:21 AM.
 
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Old 12-23-2015, 08:11 AM   #28
Germany_chris
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Is the quality actually declining are are we just noticing it because we'll at a different level in our chosen profession?
 
Old 12-23-2015, 03:24 PM   #29
TB0ne
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Is the quality actually declining are are we just noticing it because we'll at a different level in our chosen profession?
I think the quality is declining, not the perspective. It's easy to spot people who are sharp and know what they're doing, and I'm fortunate to have several young folks working with me who are definitely on their A-games. But I've seen many more who take practice tests/dumps, until they can eke out a 'certification', to pad a resume with.

The Internet is great...however, just like anything else, it can make you lazy if you let it. Rather than making it work for YOU (by reading/researching), there are far more people posting "I need a script! HELP! IT'S URGENT!", or "How to download Red Hat?". Which is what I said earlier...as long as people CAN be lazy, they WILL be lazy. Give someone a script, and it's NOTICED, and pretty soon you have dozens of bums asking for a handout for THEIR homework/work-assignments.
 
Old 12-23-2015, 04:12 PM   #30
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Blimey TB0ne, you took the words right out of my mouth. After another post regarding where to download the RHEL iso I was just about to post along the same lines. It's a scary thought that there are so many "admins" out there who don't have the slightest concept of the OS they are administering!
 
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