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Old 01-03-2016, 10:53 AM   #46
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoStressHQ View Post
Different situation similar "case", I did this, believing at heart that it was good for the project, unfortunately "She" (the genre are reversed, it was a female "expert" for male "investor"), was his mistress (and next wife the year after)...

Result for me, 2 months of "rush" in a rubbish ambiance, not paid...Yeah !
It can certainly happen...and there are never guarantees, but at least my conscience is clear. And if they want to shovel money at someone who isn't competent, that's their business. They'll either go OUT of business (because such behavior is rarely isolated to one area), or get caught and fired.

The old adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" applies. I will only be honest...it's up to them to act.
 
Old 01-03-2016, 12:50 PM   #47
David.Feldman
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Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
If you didn't tell her point blank that her 'expert' was a total idiot, and point out how INCREDIBLY SIMPLE what you did was, you did her a disservice.
Oh, I told her that. She had a budget of about $10 anyway so I wasn't worried about losing this job.
 
Old 01-03-2016, 01:28 PM   #48
NoStressHQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
but at least my conscience is clear.
Oh yes my conscience is clear too, and I want it to stay this way...

But my bank account is clear too... If you could talk to some of my colleagues, you'd know that I have my reputation in the industry I work in . Both proud to be like this, but also a bit tired the "world" rules are otherwise...

It's also a matter of "luck", or environment / opportunities. I know.
 
Old 01-03-2016, 01:54 PM   #49
jamison20000e
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Linux? Try anywhere, psychologies of laziness like warm or cold spots in lakes; some* make takers.... should be get what you give. I know I'm confused? (Just here for the :scratch:)
 
Old 01-07-2016, 01:24 PM   #50
bloody
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Windows users coming in...

And yes, today there's so much more to know about Linux, software & stuff than 15+ years ago when the choice was either Slackware with bash, Debian with bash or maybe Suse with bash...
 
Old 01-08-2016, 01:06 AM   #51
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The reason is because all companies (I MEAN IT) look for people with at least 3 years for JUNIOR Linux admin roles!!

How are you supposed to get real life experience without experience? You can't fly without walking first!

Who to blame you may ask? The industry itself!
 
Old 01-08-2016, 06:07 AM   #52
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The reason is because all companies (I MEAN IT) look for people with at least 3 years for JUNIOR Linux admin roles!!
Or even land a Jr Linux Admin Role, because all of the laid of Sr. Admins take those positions.

People have made comments that I've been on this forum since January 2004 and I'm asking basic Linux questions. It because I could never land a Jr Linux Admin role. The only IT jobs where I'm originally from is Omaha and the only jobs there are dead-end IT help desk jobs with no growth and no advancement.

We just need a body to answer the phone, that's it!
 
Old 01-08-2016, 09:51 AM   #53
jamison20000e
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Hobbyist. :-)

I use to hate working with so many lazy people, still do but now I find working for lazy people? I'm thinking of moving to a third world and becoming a farmer or something...
 
Old 01-08-2016, 10:39 AM   #54
sundialsvcs
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I think that as an industry we've done a piss-poor job of explaining what is actually required to construct or maintain a computer program, or to manage a computer system well enough. The only thing that "the suits" realized was that we were expen$ive. So, in true capitalist fashion, they searched the world over to find indentured servants who wouldn't dare say "no" to anything.

. . . and they got what they deserved. (But the people that they lured into making a 10,000 mile journey, didn't. "In true capitalist fashion," they just got screwed.)

I think that the day will soon come when computer programming and systems management are recognized professions, requiring state- or federally-issued licensure. (After all, right now in most states you must have a license to install low-voltage lighting!) The days where you could get a job just by being able to spell "komputur" will finally fade into a bad memory. You'll have to pass background checks, there will be limits on the sort of work you can do and what information you can be given access to, and there will probably also be labor unions, which establish a progression from "apprentice" to "journeyman" to "master" that is also set-forth in the law.

We should remember that the current crop of "newbies" is, for all intents and purposes, just the first generation to come on board to the industry as we now know it. The problems are beginning to surface, and they happen to be huge problems. (Billion- or even trillion-dollar "data breaches" that are most certainly inside-jobs, and so forth.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-08-2016 at 10:42 AM.
 
Old 01-08-2016, 12:24 PM   #55
273
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In the UK, at least, background checks are required for more and more positions within the IT field including simple "data entry" and semi-techinical helldesk (which I do) roles -- those who handle physical files are also subject to vetting.
I understand your call for a government certification scheme but, sadly, I don't share your optimism that it will change anything. All I have heard about government certification here in the UK (for gas fitters and such) leads me to believe you will still have people doing "fast track" courses as they will be managed pretty much as MCSE was back in the day.
Proper apprenticeships, I agree, would be good but they're too expensive to implement as they do not show short-term "cost effectiveness".
 
Old 01-08-2016, 12:53 PM   #56
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTux View Post
The reason is because all companies (I MEAN IT) look for people with at least 3 years for JUNIOR Linux admin roles!!

How are you supposed to get real life experience without experience? You can't fly without walking first! Who to blame you may ask? The industry itself!
Sorry, but I have to disagree. I've often said (and MAINTAIN it), that I look for experience...but I have NEVER said I limit it to job experience. If someone comes in with a thin resume, but lists skills on it, I'll consider them. That's where having the actual KNOWLEDGE comes in, rather than "I'm having many certs!!!" I'll ask questions, and if they show a fairly good grasp of what they've listed, I'll know they're good candidates.

You "fly" by walking around your own home first. There is ZERO preventing anyone these days from getting server-class experience at home. If you have a computer, you can easily load virtualbox for free, load up a server-class distro like CentOS, and configure away. Documentation? Ample.

And if you mean "all companies" you're wrong....I can tell you for fact that most larger companies have email scanning tools that look for keywords in resumes, and if you don't match a bunch of them, you won't EVER make it in front of a person, regardless if you have 30 years experience and two PhD's, you wont' be considered for a junior IT post.

Network; talk to people, and build your reputation based on GOOD WORK and HONESTY. Ask questions, and NEVER be afraid to say "I don't know, but I'll find out and make it work, if you give me a chance". It *WILL* spread, and as long as you treat that reputation seriously and don't tarnish it for quick buck, you will have ZERO problems getting or keeping work.
 
Old 01-08-2016, 01:02 PM   #57
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I have worked for, and know of many, companies in which either the HR department or a recruitment agency are used to look for candidates -- both will only look for "3 years or more of experience" and nothing else and they will also discount anybody without a specific certificate. So, yes, it is very common to not even make an interview for a job without "on the job experience" or/and a certificate.
Of course, not every company is like that but I find a great many posts on here by seasoned veterans seem to deny that this kind of problem even exists. It's fine if you do have a network of friends in. The industry or if you've been doing it for years but, really, just putting a certificate on your CV or having spent a few months dragging your heels in a certain type of job can get you an interview you would never get otherwise.
 
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:44 PM   #58
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
I have worked for, and know of many, companies in which either the HR department or a recruitment agency are used to look for candidates -- both will only look for "3 years or more of experience" and nothing else and they will also discount anybody without a specific certificate. So, yes, it is very common to not even make an interview for a job without "on the job experience" or/and a certificate.
Of course, not every company is like that but I find a great many posts on here by seasoned veterans seem to deny that this kind of problem even exists. It's fine if you do have a network of friends in. The industry or if you've been doing it for years but, really, just putting a certificate on your CV or having spent a few months dragging your heels in a certain type of job can get you an interview you would never get otherwise.
It *ABSOLUTELY* exists, but please see my previous statement about mail-scanners. Larger companies and/or recruiting firms DO look for such things, which will prevent a skilled candidate from ever appearing before a hiring manager. But if you KNOW someone who can attest to your skills, and can get your resume to a MANAGER, rather than an HR drone, you will have a MUCH better chance. Also, going for smaller companies first can often do that...since they don't use such things.

Personally, if someone has three years experience working with Linux in a non-work environment...it wouldn't bother ME in the least to see them list that on a resume, because it's TRUE. And all this hearkens back to the original thread topic.

People getting 'certs' (without the knowledge behind them), JUST to get a job, that they're not qualified for. Quality declining, because of that mindset of certifications > knowledge. It never will be. It is NOT easy to get that first job, for anyone, in any field, and it never has been. I had to work in restaurants for about three years after college, before I could get the first entry-level job to get more experience. Bear in mind this was in the early 1980's...there WAS no Internet, home computers, Linux, anything else you COULD work on at home. It was through books, and anything you could scrounge up and use. And it wasn't through a recruiter...I actually went every Monday to every company with any sort of IT department, asked for the managers, and tried to talk with them, and get my resume in front of them.

It was hard, depressing, and all around unpleasant. But those introductions got doors opened...from there, I got interviews, hired, and then KNEW PEOPLE in my city. Managers and workers...I did much work for free, just to build up good will, and still do. I didn't want a *JOB*...I wanted a *CAREER*, and I wanted my name to be known as someone who worked hard, was honest, and could get things done, and I didn't compromise on things...and it pays off.

Last edited by TB0ne; 01-08-2016 at 01:46 PM.
 
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:19 PM   #59
MrTux
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Sorry, but I have to disagree. I've often said (and MAINTAIN it), that I look for experience...but I have NEVER said I limit it to job experience. If someone comes in with a thin resume, but lists skills on it, I'll consider them. That's where having the actual KNOWLEDGE comes in, rather than "I'm having many certs!!!" I'll ask questions, and if they show a fairly good grasp of what they've listed, I'll know they're good candidates.

You "fly" by walking around your own home first. There is ZERO preventing anyone these days from getting server-class experience at home. If you have a computer, you can easily load virtualbox for free, load up a server-class distro like CentOS, and configure away. Documentation? Ample.

And if you mean "all companies" you're wrong....I can tell you for fact that most larger companies have email scanning tools that look for keywords in resumes, and if you don't match a bunch of them, you won't EVER make it in front of a person, regardless if you have 30 years experience and two PhD's, you wont' be considered for a junior IT post.

Network; talk to people, and build your reputation based on GOOD WORK and HONESTY. Ask questions, and NEVER be afraid to say "I don't know, but I'll find out and make it work, if you give me a chance". It *WILL* spread, and as long as you treat that reputation seriously and don't tarnish it for quick buck, you will have ZERO problems getting or keeping work.
I assume you are in a technical role and not HR.

Most manages won't get any resumes before it goes through HR, so it is not up to manager but HR and connections.

I have tons of experience setting up enterprise environments with DNS(BIND),AD, VPN, server hardening using virtual machines but guess what it does NOT count in HR eyes!

While Windows and Networking jobs do have entry level jobs.

TL:DR: HR sets up unachievable expectations for candidates.

Relevant:


Last edited by MrTux; 01-08-2016 at 02:27 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2016, 02:54 PM   #60
fogpipe
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
In my role as a consultant (for more than 20 years), I have definitely seen the influence of three things:[list=1][*] "Just Google It."[*]
I was the poster boy for just google it If i could find a solution or snippet of code or idea to make things run a little smoother i grabbed it, but i was always happy to contribute when i could and truthfully, that didnt happen often.
At my second to last job i had the company network to admin, about 10 client networks, was expected to contribute something to php web dev when i could and was also tech support for the front office staff and the graphics design person and wrote and maintained most of the twig modules we used on the company intranet.
Come to think of it, i probably should have been paid more. But yeah, "just google it" was at the top of my problem solving strategies I cant even imagine coping with the workload if i had tried to come up with new solutions to problems that had already been solved.
After i turned 50 or so no one would hire me, but there werent many linux shops in town then and i think your average 30 something IT managers feels a little uncomfortable having someone his dads age workign for him.

Last edited by fogpipe; 01-08-2016 at 03:03 PM.
 
  


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