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Old 12-23-2015, 04:27 PM   #31
Doug G
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This thread is too amusing, since all the posts in it are written by "Linux People" (including this post)
 
Old 12-23-2015, 08:01 PM   #32
sundialsvcs
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In my role as a consultant (for more than 20 years), I have definitely seen the influence of three things:
  1. "Just Google It."
  2. A distressing lack of business skills, and a lack of perspective that this digital computer is a tool used by a business "which is not in the computer business."
  3. An unwillingness to be engaged with the business interests of an employer (or client), with the tacit expectation that the business feels the same about him or her.
Maybe this is why people around these parts think that "a [Red Hat] certification" is the Holy Grail, and that they are employable (only) because they know how to configure a firewall, and that the only way to advance their career is to change jobs as soon as possible.

In the real world of business, the digital computer is not "an end unto itself." It is a means to an end. Various of my clients over these many years have sold: auto parts, animal feed, home inspection services, and funeral-home supplies. All of them used computers, but "the computer was never 'the point.'" One of them was my client for fifteen years. When it became necessary for me to move out of the area, I passed their baton to a trusted peer.

I personally think that businesses should invest in their people again. Stop looking for "cheap labor." Start giving your employees a career. Don't give them job descriptions that are "merely clerical" and that lead nowhere. If a trucking company can advertise, "we hire you to retire you," so can you.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-23-2015 at 08:02 PM.
 
Old 12-24-2015, 08:06 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szboardstretcher View Post
Here at LQ, there are at least 5 current posts where someone is claiming that their title is something on the order of "Linux System Engineer" or "Linux Admin" or similar, and each one of those people is looking for help on how to write a script - and not even attempting it on their own.
Which just goes to show that a title means absolutely nothing. I don't care what you call yourself, I am interested in what you can deliver.

Best regards & merry Xmas!
HMW
 
Old 12-25-2015, 05:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJCR View Post
Copy and pasted from github...

Is that something very bad to do? Do you mean that the scripts you have written is 100 percent genuine and it's not someone else idea?
Are you serious ? Or maybe I misunderstand you ? Do you mean that 'copy/paste' is inevitable ? More-over, he talked about copy/paste FROM github... Not USING something on github, but make someone else jobs "theirs" and sells themselves (sometimes with a very high price) as if they were author ???

Well this pisses me off, as a software developer for many years, I've seen a lot of those posers and copy/paste maniacs that want to be managers JUST BECAUSE of social prestige or having more salary than the "poor stupid guy who work hard for nothing"...

Don't get me wrong, copy/paste when you're a beginner learning, that's ok, willing to be paid a lot, that sounds "logical"... But with those "values", trying to destroy others careers (just to be above), and sometimes being "insultful" towards the "shy workers", this, I can't understand...

And yes, maybe it's subjective (or partly subjective) but I see a lot of 'noobs" calling themselves experts, "stealing" others jobs, and sometimes being aggressive towards the "apparently weak one" because he doesn't defend himself or oversells himself. Instead of just "cheating" about their skills in an unfair competition, they sometimes "cheat" by sabotaging others works and play "my friend" with all important people so you can't just do anything against them.
 
Old 12-25-2015, 05:56 AM   #35
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Just for the record this is often about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
 
Old 12-25-2015, 08:28 AM   #36
sundialsvcs
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Or, as I heard it said, there are three stages to knowledge:
  • Neophyte: "You do know what you don't know." You are humble and eager to learn, because you see that you have so much to learn.
  • Apprentice: "You don't know what you don't know." You have learned just enough to be dangerous. You have also by now learned slightly-more than your client/manager does, so that you can persuade them that you know much more, and you're willing to do this to advance(?) your career.
  • Master: "You don't know what you do know." You just do the right thing every time, and when you try to stop and explain or to teach, you find it hard to do. You act, unerringly, "by instinct."

Companies don't invest in their people; they consider them to be disposable. They actively seek out non-immigrant visa holders in order to save a few bucks on payroll taxes. They'd never try to "save money" on their CPAs and attorneys, but do not perceive value in their (once-)professional workers.

And I'm not sure they're going to, until a system of professional licensure can be put into place to regulate who is allowed to do things like "touch a company's source code."

This fall, I spoke to a classroom full of high-school students who frankly told me that they do not intend to go to college: they can't afford it, and/or choose not to. (A college diploma at a public university can cost a quarter-million dollars now ...) But that's not what struck me speechless. What did that was what they said next:

They said they were just going to become computer programmers(!), and they were "teaching themselves" how to do it. About half said they were learning (specifically(!) ...) PHP. The other half said they were going to write hybrid (JavaScript, "a web site in drag") mobile apps. They were confident that they could earn "six figures" and spend the rest of their days living large. I smiled encouragingly, but shuddered in my boots.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-25-2015 at 08:35 AM.
 
Old 12-25-2015, 03:24 PM   #37
onebuck
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Member response to 'Quality of Linux People Declining'

Hi,

Just more input from the uninformed(dreamers)! I can remember my early days with electronics, dream up a project and follow through to fruition. One reason that when I built my first computer from scratch, if I didn't know something then I would dig through data books for information. Back then to have access to data books was a must have for early designer/builders. Heck, I would subscribe to just about any free journal that I could get my hands on.

Long before LUGS or other user supported clubs. I did get some mentoring from some very encountering professors that would spend time answering my questions outside of class. Really helped me to broaden my knowledge for electronics & computers. In those days my mind was a sponge for knowledge and building my experiences both theoretical and practical. One reason that I love this quote;
Quote:
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We Know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it."- Samuel Johnson
I keep an extensive personal library that is frequently used to help refresh my mind when necessary. I've got a good memory but if you don't use it then you'll loose it. Since moving to town from the farm my books are stored downstairs but still get access when needed.

I am still curious about how things work and if I do not know then I do investigate to find out how. Back in the day we did not have the Internet nor a WWW so you were usually digging into the University library or data books for information. Too have a manufactures Data book library was a god send and a must have for circuit designers. Journals were another great resource along with white papers to get some truly hidden treasures.

While still at the University, my office hours would usually be a indicator of who was wanting to grow and learn. Students were very challenging at times but to me it meant they were wanting the knowledge that I could provide for their growth. I do miss the students but not the stresses from the University that almost killed me. Yes, stress can kill!

One thing I have been thinking of doing is to introduce a Electronics club to middle school students. Something in the the order of STEM with the use of ARM to improvise projects to stimulate student interest. Not turnkey but design and implementation from guidance by the instructor. Projects that are practical with bells & whistles to stimulate the students.

Growing up I had the luxury of having people who would help me along with my interests. If they did not know something then they would at least know who to talk to in order to help me. Sometimes even moving me to someone Else's mentoring in order to get to the next level of understanding. We need to get back to this level of transference of mentoring without the fear of the public's injections by dark minded people(We are a PC society now). At one point in time our communities were built on trust but now are more suspicious of something that might happen. Thus placing blockades for our youth's growth.

As a child, I learned to read at a early age. This was due to my Grandpa reading to me daily from the newspaper and guiding me to understanding not mimicking. He would dutifully read to me but explain everything that I would question. Direct feedback & encouragement that would peak my interest on a subject thus opening doors to me whenever he would try to show me the practicality part so I would understand. He was a teacher at heart but also a very loving man that happened to be my Grandpa.

We need this to be the norm again so our children can grow within a supportive family atmosphere. Most families today are dysfunctional and that is partly due to our society be broken by not having the whole family involved with the child's growth. Most families have to move from their base to have a job or profession to support the immediate family. In my youth, the community and family (Grand parents, uncles, aunts) help to raise the child. Even trusted neighbors were involved with the growth. You could not get away with anything since someone was always watching, the original neighborhood watch group.

I was lucky since my Grandfather & Uncles were always fixing someone's broken piece of equipment or what ever. I would have my nose up my Grandpa's butt, they would run me off when they thought it was unsafe. But I would always sneak back and lay low to watch them work. Very giving people who would help anyone in need of some form of assistance. Grandpa & Grandma had a store and a bar with summer cabins that were a unofficial community center. People would always be available to them when asked to help someone else.

I can credit my early youth experiences/examples by caring and trusting people who had my well being at heart to contribute to me too become the man that I am today.
Quote:
"It is one of the most beautiful compensations in life…that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Happy days again!
Quote:
It takes a strong person to be ethical, for ethics are standards you may decide to follow even when others do not agree. Unless you are completely in control of your life and have a great deal of discipline, you cannot be ethical.” - Deng Ming-Doa
Communities are important for everyone, LQ included.
Respect!
Have fun & enjoy!
 
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Old 12-25-2015, 03:51 PM   #38
273
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I think I must be one of the people who has been using Linux for years (not sure how many, more than 5 probably less than 10) but still knows the square root of zero about it. Luckily, however, I don't do it for a living though I did interview for a support position and managed to forget just about every common TCP/IP port and didn't get the job (no idea whether it was that that lost me the job as the bloke interviewing me made positive noises and even told the recruiter I was good).
Anyway, my point being (if I have a point) is that it's pretty easy to run Linux day-to-day without knowing a whole load about it as long as you're willing to google a bit and poke around when necessary. I don't see that as a bad thing as long as when questions are asked they're asked sensibly.
However, I have to admit whenever I see a post by a "Linux Administrator RHCE" asking something fairly basic I really want to contact their employer and have them fired as they're a liability to themselves and the whole internet.

Edit: That goes for MCSEs, CCNAs etc. also -- or any other professional asking a basic question on the internet without any decent information.

Last edited by 273; 12-25-2015 at 03:52 PM.
 
Old 12-30-2015, 12:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szboardstretcher View Post
This is a completely subjective thought on my part. I have noticed here at LQ, and even at my job, that people who say things like "Yeah, I've used Linux for years" generally are horrible at using Linux.

Here at LQ, there are at least 5 current posts where someone is claiming that their title is something on the order of "Linux System Engineer" or "Linux Admin" or similar, and each one of those people is looking for help on how to write a script - and not even attempting it on their own.

Here at my shop, I have a kid that has more experience at Burger King than he does in systems administration, but he sells himself in his resume as a "Senior Linux Administrator" but he is unable to tell me the difference between systemd and sys-v. Apparently he has used Linux for years (Ubuntu) and has written many scripts (Copy and pasted from github).

It just seems like the over all ... education? ... of Linux people is on the decline, especially people who would call themselves experts or engineers.

Thoughts or observations?

You can think of it as both a positive and a negative.
The positive being, perhaps the uptake of Linux amongst those starting out with computing has increased. Perhaps more people are moving from Windows.

The negative issue is information overload for users. Now more than ever people seem busier than ever because they are overloaded with what they think they need to get done on their checklists. They underestimate how long a specific task is actually going to take and thereby overload their checklists. Especially with the Internet people underestimate how long a task is actually going to take to accomplish, the result of which is making them busier. New and relatively difficult tasks tend to take longer to do than you think.

Another theory of mine is that with the overload of information (because of the web) this tends to make people more generalists on a wide range of topics rather than specialist masters of a specific field or topic. People can only do so much education. The appropriate learning curve for Linux as compared to Windows is quite high. What can be done with a handful of point and clicks in Windows requires a lot more education on a Linux system. By that token people start believing themselves to be Senior and expert at computer usage. Basically, if they want to learn to operate a computer properly then should use Linux. I'm sure you mean the Burger King fellow is more an expert at administering a Linux box than anything else yet he doesn't claim to be an expert. There are many such.

Microsoft have made a real mess of the IT industry. It's only in recent years with the proliferation of standardised and Open platforms (Google, Android, Linux) that we've seen IT moving across traditional (Microsoft) boundaries into more useful and general purpose applications. The more people move away from Windows is only a good thing.

Last edited by linuxbawks; 12-30-2015 at 12:11 PM.
 
Old 12-30-2015, 12:57 PM   #40
sidzen
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@OP

I have noticed this shift in mindset towards achieving goals in general Society, as well. It seems the switch from a production society to one based on information (and technology) coupled with a 'declining quality of education' are largely to blame for the subjective observation you make. Throw in the perverse incentives of the Economy, like a dog-eat-dog Capitalism and caveat emptor corporate and merchant mentalities, and it is no surprise. I am pretty sure that environmental variables come into play as far as other mental factors (attention spans, etc.) are concerned. Where is socially-responsible Capitalism today? I don't see Carnegies, I see Trumps!
 
Old 01-02-2016, 10:50 AM   #41
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This thread has hit on so many major points for me, its hard to respond to all of them, so I will try to summarize what was important to me.

I love working with technology, yet hate some many of the facets that surround it.

- Lack of career path and lack of mentoring, training and coaching at work. Currently I don't have a SR Linux Admin that I can bounce ideas off of or talk thru issues. I'm the only Linux admin where I work. I've come to realize that I'm only going to get the mentoring and coaching is by forums like this.
I've also come to realize that a worker isn't going to spend their whole career working for the same company and are going to have to job hop in order to get promotion or advance or learn new technologies and skills. A few jobs ago I was going close to 4 years on the help desk and realized no matter how hard I worked or how many more certs or college degrees that I get, I was stuck there and I was going to have to jump ship because they don't promote competent folks or people who want to advance their careers.

This question is starting to brew in the back of my mind. I will hit two years as a Linux Sys Admin later this year. I'm starting to think the next level. What skills/technologies will i have to learn to advance and become better? That might be another thread all by itself.

- Scumbag recruiters. I don't even bother to return their calls/emails anymore. To me they are a waste of time, especially the ones from India. And a valid point was made here, since I have a number of technical certifications, most certainly they should too, because it would improve the quality of recruiter. Nope. At the end of the day its all about the bottom line and the almighty dollar. How do I get blacklisted from Insight Global or Tek Systems?

- Everyone padding their resume. Yes I see this all of the time too. People list Linux on their resume and they can't answer basic questions (From the CLI, determine what type of shell you are working with or what is the current Linux Kernel running). I guess they have learned as long as they appear confident, they all will be alright.

- Run-a-muck Capitalism, the system isn't working anymore...
 
Old 01-03-2016, 08:05 AM   #42
David.Feldman
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A story: I built a two-page site for someone recently. The home page is static and has a link to the second page, which has a custom script. That's all the person needed and she's very happy. She then sent me a friend and asked me to copy the two pages to her site, but remove the personal details, including the main text of the home page. I did that, which meant I also removed the link to the second page.

This second site owner contacted me a week later that she was working with an "experienced computer programmer" who said I had broken the entire site and it could not be fixed. After a bit of back and forth, I realized all I had to do was put back a simple HTML link from the first page to the second page.

She wrote back about how delighted she was and thanked me so much for fixing everything and then her "programmer" edited the rest of the text on the home page for her.

She was going to rebuild the entire site because I had "broken" it. Took me 30 seconds to add that link.

I suppose if you can be a programmer and not know what an A tag is, then you can be a Linux Admin and not know what a "bash" is.

Is this called Progress?
 
Old 01-03-2016, 09:47 AM   #43
suicidaleggroll
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I don't agree with the premise of this thread, not because I don't think it happens, but because I don't see it as anything new.

People have always inflated their titles and resumes in the technical fields, this is nothing special with Linux. You see it all the time in programming...on one side you have people like me who have experience in a lot of languages but are only proficient in a few, they either spell all of them out under categories (eg: "proficient in", "familiar with", "experience using") or only list the ones they're proficient in, then on the other side you have the people who list out every single language they've ever seen, then when it comes to interview time you find out that their only experience with half, or maybe all, of the languages on their list is opening up a file and changing a variable name, once, 10 years ago.

This behavior has simply taken hold in the "administration" side of IT as well. You need to run your interview process in a way that can separate the resume inflators from the people who actually know what they're doing, same as you've always had to do in other technical fields.

Last edited by suicidaleggroll; 01-03-2016 at 09:50 AM.
 
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:57 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David.Feldman View Post
A story: I built a two-page site for someone recently. The home page is static and has a link to the second page, which has a custom script. That's all the person needed and she's very happy. She then sent me a friend and asked me to copy the two pages to her site, but remove the personal details, including the main text of the home page. I did that, which meant I also removed the link to the second page.

This second site owner contacted me a week later that she was working with an "experienced computer programmer" who said I had broken the entire site and it could not be fixed. After a bit of back and forth, I realized all I had to do was put back a simple HTML link from the first page to the second page.

She wrote back about how delighted she was and thanked me so much for fixing everything and then her "programmer" edited the rest of the text on the home page for her.

She was going to rebuild the entire site because I had "broken" it. Took me 30 seconds to add that link. I suppose if you can be a programmer and not know what an A tag is, then you can be a Linux Admin and not know what a "bash" is.

Is this called Progress?
No, it's called "lack of standards" and "being good at bulls**tting". Anyone can claim to be a programmer...doesn't mean they are. So her 'programmer' probably did a good sales job/was a friend or relative.

If you didn't tell her point blank that her 'expert' was a total idiot, and point out how INCREDIBLY SIMPLE what you did was, you did her a disservice. She'll go happily on with her 'expert', and waste money/time with them...rather than giving YOU the job, and you know what you are doing. I'd have pointed her to a web-basics tutorial on Google (and the simpler sounding one I could find, the better), and showed her exactly the one-line link you added, and suggest to her she mention it to her 'expert' to see why they didn't know it.

I have gotten MANY clients over the years, simply by doing things like this. If I don't know, I'll admit to the client I don't, and give them two options: hire what I don't know out to someone else who DOES, or I'll give them a discounted rate if they let me learn it on their dime. Either way, happy client who saves money...and just by being honest, I get a ton more business.

That is the standard to which I hold everyone who works for me, with no exceptions, ever. I catch someone doing different, I show them the door.
 
Old 01-03-2016, 10:45 AM   #45
NoStressHQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
If you didn't tell her point blank that her 'expert' was a total idiot, and point out how INCREDIBLY SIMPLE what you did was, you did her a disservice.
Different situation similar "case", I did this, believing at heart that it was good for the project, unfortunately "She" (the genre are reversed, it was a female "expert" for male "investor"), was his mistress (and next wife the year after)...

Result for me, 2 months of "rush" in a rubbish ambiance, not paid...

Yeah !
 
  


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