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Old 01-08-2016, 02:58 PM   #61
suicidaleggroll
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Yes, HR departments are the worst.

When I was getting out of college, I applied to a large research institution with a huge engineering department/facility. Unfortunately my resume was thrown out...why? Because I had a 3.49 GPA, and their cutoff was a 3.50. Nevermind that I had a 3.75 in engineering/math, or that my 3.49 was from the best university within 200 miles, and one of the best engineering universities in the state, that didn't matter. Instead, they threw away my application and pulled in a bunch of people from the local community college who were able to skate by with >3.5 without doing any work or understanding the field at all.

Last edited by suicidaleggroll; 01-08-2016 at 03:01 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2016, 03:25 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
It *ABSOLUTELY* exists, but please see my previous statement about mail-scanners. Larger companies and/or recruiting firms DO look for such things, which will prevent a skilled candidate from ever appearing before a hiring manager. But if you KNOW someone who can attest to your skills, and can get your resume to a MANAGER, rather than an HR drone, you will have a MUCH better chance. Also, going for smaller companies first can often do that...since they don't use such things.
The problem being that most people cannot choose where they work or when they have to find employment. If you're "fresh out of college" (as a stereotypical example) you're broke, in need of work and without any experience or connections-- you submit your CV to lots of companies and are rejected flat out by all apart from the ones who will use you for donkey work, provide no training, and be of no use in a future CV.
Just having some good-for-nothing certification could get you out of that.
If you know your stuff and you know the IT manager of a company that has roles for your stuff and you don't have a job then either you're incompetent or he is but you're also in a lucky minority.
Sorry, I really do tend to agree with you but I feel that in this, and many other threads along similar lines, people may be forgetting that in the majority of cases people have to get jobs through HR departments, agencies and automated means, in some cases for many years, before "getting a break". And, in those circumstances, an otherwise meaningless piece of paper or a lie about the necessary knowledge in a job may be the only way to get that break.
 
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Old 01-08-2016, 03:34 PM   #63
Liam Mapson
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fogpipe brought up a relevant idea in this thread back in mid December which I think bears a little more thought:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fogpipe View Post
First let me start off saying that i have used linux for years (about 20). Im 60 now and havent had a linux job in years, but i never really knew much about specific systems solutions even tho my last linux job title was "Network and Systems Analyst" completely overblown imo.

All i really ever knew when i was getting paid to do linux was a little perl, a smatterng of shell and other kinds of scripting, general system knowledge, enough php to contribute to web dev and how to use a search engine.
I would rate the last skill as perhaps the most important, no use wasting time on a problem that someone else has solved.

I have to say tho that the attitude of most my cohorts and myself was a little shameless, usually if asked to do something we would just say sure, even if we didnt know how to do it, and then find out how. Literally making it up as we went along.

There is alot i used to do that i have forgotten and thats ok, as long as there is google and lq ill be fine. So i guess i am and was one of those guys you are talking about
Don't sell yourself short:
  • a little perl
  • a smatterng of shell and other kinds of scripting
  • general system knowledge
  • enough php to contribute to web dev
  • how to use a search engine

A linux system administrator doesn't have to be a trained programmer, though it helps (and I don't actually know any who aren't). But the point you seem to discount is:
  • Literally making it up as we went along.

That's just another facet of the ability to "think on your feet" and that, along with -some- form of programming or scripting ability, general system knowledge, good "people skills" and a careful, thoughtful attitude goes a long way toward making a decent admin. One has to translate that "general system knowledge" into a stash of "specific system knowledge" pretty promptly, but every change of jobs requires that.

I once worked for a consulting company where the owner thought I was a Unix geek and he was considering selling my services as such. Having never even touched a Unix or linux system in my life, I asked him why he thought that. Turns out it was just because I knew a little about regular expressions and could think on my feet (make stuff up as I went along). I never did Unix work in that job, but I eventually took a "Unix" class (using redhat linux) at college and spent several years doing administration (and programming) on Solaris, HPUX and SCO. To this day I've never been paid specifically to do anything with linux.

I suspect the apparent "Declining Quality of Linux People" is due not just to users making a switch from Windows, but also to Windows admins trying to branch out from the Windows world to linux. Some of the relevant skills will translate nicely, but some not so much. Also, when a (possibly skilled) Windows user switches his home PC to linux (after the umpteenth malware/virus infection renders Windows unusable -again-), he is now able to log in as "root", the fabled superuser. That makes him an admin, right? No need to ever use that limited "regular user" account.
 
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Old 01-09-2016, 11:26 AM   #64
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTux View Post
I assume you are in a technical role and not HR.

Most manages won't get any resumes before it goes through HR, so it is not up to manager but HR and connections.

I have tons of experience setting up enterprise environments with DNS(BIND),AD, VPN, server hardening using virtual machines but guess what it does NOT count in HR eyes!

While Windows and Networking jobs do have entry level jobs.

TLR: HR sets up unachievable expectations for candidates.
You apparently didn't read what I posted. I *EMPLOY* several people, so I am both technical AND HR. And as I said, getting PAST HR and putting your resume into a managers hands is often what it takes to get that first job.
 
Old 01-09-2016, 02:44 PM   #65
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
The problem being that most people cannot choose where they work or when they have to find employment. If you're "fresh out of college" (as a stereotypical example) you're broke, in need of work and without any experience or connections-- you submit your CV to lots of companies and are rejected flat out by all apart from the ones who will use you for donkey work, provide no training, and be of no use in a future CV. Just having some good-for-nothing certification could get you out of that.
Agreed, and like I said, I've been there personally.
Quote:
If you know your stuff and you know the IT manager of a company that has roles for your stuff and you don't have a job then either you're incompetent or he is but you're also in a lucky minority.
Sorry, I really do tend to agree with you but I feel that in this, and many other threads along similar lines, people may be forgetting that in the majority of cases people have to get jobs through HR departments, agencies and automated means, in some cases for many years, before "getting a break". And, in those circumstances, an otherwise meaningless piece of paper or a lie about the necessary knowledge in a job may be the only way to get that break.
I agree, to a point, but I also think the phrase "you make your own luck" is true. Like I said, I worked restaurants for three years after college. They're closed on Mondays, so every single Monday morning I'd get up, suit up, and hit the bricks. I would *PERSONALLY* show up at companies, knock on doors, and ask for the IT departments, just hoping for a chance to talk with someone. I gave everyone I could find a resume, and tried to schedule follow-up meetings whenever I could. I've said before that people with certifications listed on their resumes get nothing special when I look at them, and I typically will grill them a bit harder...after all, they have 'certs'.

It was hard, depressing, and tiring...but it eventually paid off. I got hired, and busted my a**, and learned EVERYTHING I possibly could. Showed up early, stayed late, and volunteered for everything. Underpaid? Absolutely...but that reputation paid off in spades, when I got my NEXT job.

That's why I said earlier I would DEFINITELY put at-home experience on a resume, and list out time spent on it as well. HR drones will give it a cursory glance...the word-scanner it runs through will pass it TO that drone, and it will at least have a chance to make it to a hiring manager. From there, it's up to you and your skills. But I'd also strongly suggest getting out of the chair, and going, IN PERSON to places. There never will be a substitute for face-to-face contact.
 
Old 01-09-2016, 03:02 PM   #66
273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Agreed, and like I said, I've been there personally.

I agree, to a point, but I also think the phrase "you make your own luck" is true. Like I said, I worked restaurants for three years after college. They're closed on Mondays, so every single Monday morning I'd get up, suit up, and hit the bricks. I would *PERSONALLY* show up at companies, knock on doors, and ask for the IT departments, just hoping for a chance to talk with someone. I gave everyone I could find a resume, and tried to schedule follow-up meetings whenever I could. I've said before that people with certifications listed on their resumes get nothing special when I look at them, and I typically will grill them a bit harder...after all, they have 'certs'.

It was hard, depressing, and tiring...but it eventually paid off. I got hired, and busted my a**, and learned EVERYTHING I possibly could. Showed up early, stayed late, and volunteered for everything. Underpaid? Absolutely...but that reputation paid off in spades, when I got my NEXT job.

That's why I said earlier I would DEFINITELY put at-home experience on a resume, and list out time spent on it as well. HR drones will give it a cursory glance...the word-scanner it runs through will pass it TO that drone, and it will at least have a chance to make it to a hiring manager. From there, it's up to you and your skills. But I'd also strongly suggest getting out of the chair, and going, IN PERSON to places. There never will be a substitute for face-to-face contact.
I do have to almost completely agree with you here and admire your tenacity. I do find though that, while it is true that you can "make your own luck", sometimes luck is just luck*.
I would certainly point anyone thinking of a career in Linux (or any career really) to your advice as being sound. I suppose I'm just a bit of a cynic and feel the need to point out that sometimes those who deserve something don't get it and those who don't do.

*To give myself as an example: I did land a fairly decent role at a very nice place to work through nothing but dumb luck. Had I known then what I know now I would have done things better but that's with hindsight. The point being I was a no-nothing wet-behind-the-ears guy who got a break thanks to a no-nothing chancer of a recruiter and my work ethic -- I have no doubt there were people who would have done a lot more with that job than I did.

Last edited by 273; 01-09-2016 at 03:07 PM.
 
Old 01-10-2016, 08:34 PM   #67
sundialsvcs
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First of all, I would very quickly dismiss the entire "Linux versus ..." claptrap from 'serious' consideration.

Quote:
("Waitaminit ... should we really 'spill the beans,' or shouldn't we just continue to keep them in the dark??")
Koff... koff... the actual reality, in virtually every shop that I have worked with in #koff koff ...nevermind, kid# years, is that there is always "a hell's mixture of" technologies already in play. Somewhere in their company, they've got an AS/400. Maybe a mainframe, too. They've got Windows and Linux and OS/X ... (various flavors of all of the foregoing) ... (hope you still remember OS/9, OS/2 and MS-DOS!) ...

In days that I very-easily remember, this sort of thing was "par for the course," because digital computer technology was still struggling to get out of its own way.

In the past decade or so, however, new perspectives emerged: "We are 'Reality 2.0!'"

This perspective would be perfectly acceptable i-f "computers were 'your business,' (a direct cost)" instead of being (as is the case for 99.99% of all businesses on Planet Earth ...) "an indirect cost."

But, IMHO, "an entire (new) generation of (PHP?) programmers" have been brought up under the "the tacit expectation that 'the business justification for whatever-the-hell we are doing will merely take care of itself." (Or, much more crudely: "I am entirely justified in Commanding A Six-Figure Salary Based Upon 'What I Know.'"

How do we break it to them? They all seem to be intoxicated by "The Internet™ as an End Unto Itself."

How do we tell them that Real Businesses sell ... corn chips ... or hay ... or funeral-home supplies?

(All of which businesses, BTW, I have over the past thirty-plus years counted as my clients?)

Hmm... "have any of 'these upstarts' actually had ... clients?!"
 
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Old 01-12-2016, 02:33 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
You apparently didn't read what I posted. I *EMPLOY* several people, so I am both technical AND HR. And as I said, getting PAST HR and putting your resume into a managers hands is often what it takes to get that first job.
I have gotten pass the drones alright but the HR recruiter won't even show it to the hiring manager unless there is a solid 3 years of experience for a junior role.
 
Old 01-12-2016, 02:41 PM   #69
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTux View Post
I have gotten pass the drones alright but the HR recruiter won't even show it to the hiring manager unless there is a solid 3 years of experience for a junior role.
...and back to "You obviously didn't read what I posted"

Did you miss the parts where I said that I personally visited places, and asked for the IT managers?? That's how that happens. Or again, as stated before, list your 3 years of experience at home/whatever, to get you in the door. Your experiences are VALID, no matter where you get them. If you want to depend on the HR folks, go right ahead.
 
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