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There is no oxymoron there. Don't know what you are looking at...
Jesus wasn't conservative, nor capitalist.
Jesus on capitalism (Matthew 19):
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Jesus on income taxes (Mark 12):
13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn't we?"
But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
The reason I bought a MacBook Pro is so that I can;
A) Not pay Bill Gates more money.
B) It's UNIX, but has room for my favorite proprietary applications.
C) I can put Windows/OS X/Linux on there without any problem if I want to.
D) I like the design/looks/feel/everything of the MacBook Pro much, much more than any other laptop ever.
E) I like Apple.
...
Now I'm a Christian Conservative Capitalist Apple fanboy. You guys must hate every fiber of my being now.
I still love Linux though and won't leave y'all anytime soon. I'm just extra happy now. And, apparently, extra political. lol
I was just thinking how Apple really isn't any better than M$, it's just their image of being free and creative. They lock down everything they can, for example they even made an OS that would work on almost any Intel PC but they used DRM to make it only work on one made by Apple, and they made a smartphone but locked it to only AT&T.
Anyway, they think Apple is free and creative? Bet they never heard of Linux.
I was just thinking how Apple really isn't any better than M$, it's just their image of being free and creative. They lock down everything they can, for example they even made an OS that would work on almost any Intel PC but they used DRM to make it only work on one made by Apple, and they made a smartphone but locked it to only AT&T.
Anyway, they think Apple is free and creative? Bet they never heard of Linux.
Not to mention the way that their hardware (common PC hardware, incidentally) in not able to be upgraded or expanded. Wanna upgrade your Mac? Bzzzzt. You gotta buy a new one...
Not to mention the way that their hardware (common PC hardware, incidentally) in not able to be upgraded or expanded. Wanna upgrade your Mac? Bzzzzt. You gotta buy a new one...
What do you mean? Exactly how does it stop you from upgrading it?
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Jesus on income taxes (Mark 12):
13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn't we?"
But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
Uh-oh..... As one who has read the Bible 33 times in it's entirety thus far in my life, I am refraining from the overwhelming temptation to set the record straight on this one, for fear that the forum would never be the same again.
...O-K...I can't resist! Just a little!
Think of something: Jesus told one person to do something- as He knew what that person's idol was, and "Thou shalt have no other God before me". If everyone had to do that, what would the poor do once they had the riches of the rich bestowed on them? They'd have to give it away to someone else- and how would anyone earn a living? Believe me, the euthor of "Thou shalt not steal" is very conservative and is the author of private property.
Biblical charity is voluntary. One does it if they believe, to please God. Other men were never given dominion over your finances to force you to do anything- and if you weren't charitable, there was no humanly-imposed penalty and no forceful taking of what was yours- only disfavor with God. (Even the Levitical priests did not have authority to compel charitble donations or impose penalties for non-compliance)
The Tax incident is another point that is always perverted. Notice that they asked Him the question to "tempt" Him. If He had said plainly that it was unlawful to pay taxes, the Romanas would have legitimate cause to arrest Him. If He had said it was lawful to pay, He would be elevating Ceasar to the point of equality with or superiority to God. Therefore, He dodged the question by merely stating a fact: Render to Ceasar what is Ceasars". What is Ceasar's? Anything Ceasar says is his? Notice Jesus paid with a coin which did not come from His own purse nor anyone elses, but which was just lost- and since it was something issued by Ceasar and having his likeness on it...it belonged to him. Just as today here in the USA- Federal Reserve Notes ($) are issued by a corporation that has been given a franchise by the gov't- and if we choose to deal in them, we have to abide by the rules which they impose upon that which they have created .
Not to mention the way that their hardware (common PC hardware, incidentally) in not able to be upgraded or expanded. Wanna upgrade your Mac? Bzzzzt. You gotta buy a new one...
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Jesus on income taxes (Mark 12):
13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn't we?"
But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit; supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are determined mainly by private decisions in the free market, rather than by the state through central economic planning; Profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 20:17
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbs 13:11
Wealth obtained by fraud dwindles, but the one who gathers by labor increases it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 25:14-30
For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. ‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’ For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 2:15
Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbs 14:23
In all labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbs 28:19
He who tills his land will have plenty of food, but he who follows empty pursuits will have poverty in plenty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever
Jesus specifically points out greed and the love of money as the corrupting principles in a rich man's life. If that rich man is righteous in is dealings, Jesus by no means persecutes him, and does not persecute based solely on monetary income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
Not to mention the way that their hardware (common PC hardware, incidentally) in not able to be upgraded or expanded. Wanna upgrade your Mac? Bzzzzt. You gotta buy a new one...
I was just thinking how Apple really isn't any better than M$, it's just their image of being free and creative. They lock down everything they can, for example they even made an OS that would work on almost any Intel PC but they used DRM to make it only work on one made by Apple, and they made a smartphone but locked it to only AT&T.
Anyway, they think Apple is free and creative? Bet they never heard of Linux.
While Apple - legitimately - uses and produces Open Source software, whether you can talk about freedom here depends on what rights you have with the things you produce with Apple software.
Jesus specifically points out greed and the love of money as the corrupting principles in a rich man's life. If that rich man is righteous in is dealings, Jesus by no means persecutes him, and does not persecute based solely on monetary income.
Amen!
Quote:
Genesis 13:2 And Abram [was] very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold
Quote:
Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Quote:
Genesis 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
Genesis 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Genesis 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
(Ya know...I think this is somehow my fault...discussions of politics and religion seem to follow me wherever I go- even though I did not start this! )
Jesus specifically points out greed and the love of money as the corrupting principles in a rich man's life.
Correct. The point you seem to be missing is that greed is an essential ingredient in capitalism. Even Milton Friedman acknowledged that. And, as you would know, greed is a Capital Sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard
If that rich man is righteous in is dealings, Jesus by no means persecutes him, and does not persecute based solely on monetary income.
True, but that is by no means the end of it. What the wealthy man does with his righteously earned money (after providing for his family) determines whether he is granted eternal life in Heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy
Believe me, the euthor of "Thou shalt not steal" is very conservative and is the author of private property.
Haha... and you accuse others of perverse interpretation?
The Ten Commandments are instructions for living life morally and in accordance with God's wishes. They are not about the protection of property rights.
I am astounded that you have claim to have read the Holy Bible 33 times and still do not understand this point. Even more astonishing is that you seem to think that Jesus wrote the Ten Commandments.
Yes, greed is inherent in any political system because it is a fundamental sin of man. It is your choice whether or not to abide by any law of the scripture. The choice to be ethical, and the choice to be greedy are just that; choices.
In this respect, an economic system can't be tied to Jesus' Word directly. It is the people that make that system go. And in any country, be it China, Russia or the USA, corruption among the wealthy is always present. Jesus knew this to be true, and in the scripture he simply lays down these facts as warnings. The biblical quotations I posted above explicitly explains that the harder you work, the more wealth you obtain, which is a fundamental principle in a true Capitalist system. The ones you quoted were intended to be warnings in that endeavor.
My point is that after taking that into consideration, you choose an economic system that you believe will give people the best chance to succeed, and this is why I am a Capitalist. This is a nice poem that explains why I believe so... (From the USA point of view)
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Papa is a Capitalist
My papa is a Capitalist, my mamma, too, and I,
And if you'll wait a minute now, I'll tell the reason why;
I'm sure that when you understand, you certainly will see,
You'd better be a Capitalist, and vote with pa and me.
You see, we're very lucky to be living in a nation,
That knows rewarding hard work will encourage innovation.
For there are many people who, when offered an incentive,
Will use their brains and brawn to be amazingly inventive.
Our country's prospered like no other, based on a single notion,
That caused millions of people to board ships and cross the ocean.
What made so many immigrate and cross the churning sea?
The answer's really simple. Just one word: It's "Liberty."
The chance to live in freedom, where their dreams are not restrained,
The chance to pursue goals and know they can be obtained.
The promise of a better life drew, like moths to flame,
Millions upon millions who sought freedom, fortune, fame.
Look around the world and see the countries that have failed,
And you will find the reason is that hope had been curtailed.
If your future's been decided and your dreams have been ignored,
You've got no motive to succeed -- because there's no reward.
But if you are enabled, placed in charge of your own fate,
The world can be your oyster. That's what makes this country great.
It's the nature of humanity to always improve our lot,
To have a bigger chicken in an even bigger pot.
So papa is a Capitalist, mamma and children too;
We're in control of our own lives. And happier, as are you.
The things we want we work hard for, so the things we lack are few.
So all of us are Capitalists; please, won't you be one too?
-Glenn Beck, from Arguing With Idiots (2009)
Last edited by lupusarcanus; 08-10-2010 at 05:42 AM.
In this respect, an economic system can't be tied to Jesus' Word directly.
You're the one who tried to tie Jesus to your own political beliefs. I'm glad that you now see how silly that was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard
The biblical quotations I posted above explicitly explains that the harder you work, the more wealth you obtain, which is a fundamental principle in a true Capitalist system.
That's a naive statement. Who works harder, Bill Gates or a guy on an oil rig? And who makes more money? Bill Gates earns more money in one night's sleep than either of us could ever dream to see in our lives!
The fact is, almost all of America's wealthiest people made it by being in the right place at the right time. Some of them only made it because they were brave enough to take a chance, like the aforementioned Bill Gates (although being born into a wealthy family probably didn't hurt). I think it's great that they made it big. More power to them, I say. They are fortunate enough to live in a country where they can capitalise on their good fortune... but you can bet your bottom dollar that nobody ever made their fortune by picking up a shovel or a broom and doing an honest day's work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard
My point is that after taking that into consideration, you choose an economic system that you believe will give people the best chance to succeed, and this is why I am a Capitalist.
Both you and I were fortunate enough to be born in countries which give us these opportunities... but let's not forget that we didn't get to choose where we were born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard
-Glenn Beck, from Arguing With Idiots (2009)
Thanks for the compliment.
As admirable (though based on a fundamentally flawed and insular view which blatantly ignores of the rest of the developed world) as that poem might be, I sincerely hope that you do not seriously believe that Glenn Beck speaks on behalf of all Americans. Yes, we get The Daily Show over here...
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