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Old 07-29-2020, 11:04 PM   #61
enorbet
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Well, ntubski, that depends on what you consider origin. AFAIK it actually began with bats in a cave miles from Wuhan but first reared it's ugly head to humans in open air markets in Wuhan. As for the concern of "escaping from a lab" instead, perhaps you will find more confidence with Snopes.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/...-19-bioweapon/
 
Old 07-29-2020, 11:37 PM   #62
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Right now I'm inclined to believe that the virus was intentionally released. This belief is based on economics. The Chinese Communist Party needs a scapegoat for it's GDP not growing. Having a economy in a continual bubble can't last forever based on credit. This could have been a global effort with the U.S involved. There will be massive inflation because of the U.S stimulus checks.With hyper inflation ,the corporations will charge more for their services and they will be able to pay less because of higher unemployment. Imports will cost more which will make Trump look better.
As always with capitalism ,there is no shortage of individuals that look at covid19 as just another opportunity.

What made covid19 more news worthy than the yearly flu? Covid19 could not be covered up in China. Why was covid19 not approached and or treated like the yearly flu? Because covid19 could be exploited more than the flu.

My own opinion on covid19 is that social behavior should have only been altered to protect the most vulnerable. Shutting countries down until their economies collapse is going to be worse then the pandemic.

Some interesting side notes is that a country that imports everything can not put pressure on a country that exports to them. lowest price trumps all. I read that in the U.S ,the government shut down warehouses which is obviously going to effect the logistics chain. How close together do warehouse workers work? All of the countries that do not manufacture face masks can not handle a epidemic because they are not responsible enough to socialize goods. That's what capitalism gets you. Not possessing a face mask is a sign of greed. Why should Gates be listened to when he will only licence a product to you and you can not own it? I honestly think the U.S government should bow out and it's citizens should find another imperialist country to rule them again.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 03:24 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
If the lab safety is as good as any other product from China then I'd believe it escaped.
French builded Wuhan lab. So it seems they are right people to ask. There is gradation on safety levels. Top most safier is BSL-4. Wuhan lab has BSL-4. But what not many people knows is there are in fact two bio labs in Wuhan. The second one has BSL-2. Both in close proximity of wet market where it is claimed pandemia started. So things are much more complicated and Chinese goverenment has really lot to explain.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 06:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Well, ntubski, that depends on what you consider origin. AFAIK it actually began with bats in a cave miles from Wuhan
Okay, but in that case you don't expect a "smoking gun" in the form of higher deaths around the cave then? Why do you expect one around Wuhan?

Quote:
but first reared it's ugly head to humans in open air markets in Wuhan.
This is a little out of date: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...in-of-covid-19

Quote:
As for the concern of "escaping from a lab" instead, perhaps you will find more confidence with Snopes.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/...-19-bioweapon/
That seems to be refuting the "manufactured in a lab (possibly as bioweapon)" story which was always pretty silly (IMO). Anyway, I haven't seen any hard evidence for the escape-from-a-lab story either, so I'd still rate it as not especially likely.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 07:16 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
That seems to be refuting the "manufactured in a lab (possibly as bioweapon)" story which was always pretty silly (IMO).
It is "manufacturing" viruses in Wuhan BSL-4 what they are doing. And they are proud to create new no where in nature existed human deadly viruses. If not primary goal every such manufactured virus can be used as bioweapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Anyway, I haven't seen any hard evidence for the escape-from-a-lab story either, so I'd still rate it as not especially likely.
It would be completely enough if China governement allow international investigation to answer question about possible leak. It is action of China goverenement which makes researchers to speculate about virus origins.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 07:27 AM   #66
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Here's a link where the U.S 'plays' the card where the Chinese lab could be responsible and the U.S is holding the higher moral card.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...irus-outbreak/

The entire world could have shut down international travel ; which is just a entitlement/privilege anyways, months earlier but they choose not to. In contrast to having to wear a mask in public ,not go to work and social distancing, this is a total contradiction.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 03:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Okay, but in that case you don't expect a "smoking gun" in the form of higher deaths around the cave then? Why do you expect one around Wuhan?
I don't expect human high death rates around more remote areas, not do I expect one around Wuhan. That's not how human transmittable virii generally work. It takes a combination of factors as should be obvious now with the landscape of spread more widely known. One of those factors is a concentrated human population unaware a virus exists that is capable and potent. Since as far as we know Wuhan fits those factors, IF it had been the source it stands to reason there would be that statistical "footprint". Since there apparently isn't it stands to reason that Covid-19 didn't originate or "explode" there.

Additionally, and despite what China is apparently now saying, the market(s) had the means and opportunity to initially spread the virus to a number of populated areas while the lab comparatively did not. It also isn't like Black Plague or Spanish Flu came from a lab. The natural conditions under which dangerous virus proliferates are pretty well known long before labs studied them or tried to weaponize them.

People enjoy hard answers... someone to blame, but more often than not life is just messy fumbling about and chaotic interaction of conflicting events with tipping points in which we prefer to fool ourselves that we are in complete control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I don't see how or where is expert on virology or China, so I will wait and see, meanwhile trusting somewhat in more expert sources.

The salient point is that "escape from Wuhan lab" or any lab seems certainly possible but not very likely. Covid-19 is hardly the first virus to proliferate in China from "naturtal causes" perhaps greatest being pockets of extreme human density and "unusual" diet with little sanitary regulation.

Last edited by enorbet; 07-30-2020 at 03:55 PM.
 
Old 07-30-2020, 04:26 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
IF it had been the source it stands to reason there would be that statistical "footprint". Since there apparently isn't it stands to reason that Covid-19 didn't originate or "explode" there.
Look here https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/about/ In Wuhan because of coronavirus died about 3,8 thousands people. The best case is to multiply this number by 5 - the worst by 8 - which gives about 19 thousands up to 30 thousands of cases of virus infection. So it is statistical footprint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Additionally, and despite what China is apparently now saying, the market(s) had the means and opportunity to initially spread the virus to a number of populated areas while the lab comparatively did not.
Lab does not spread viruses. People working there got infected. Perhaps animal infected escaped. Remember poor mouse being infected for experiment?
 
Old 07-30-2020, 07:19 PM   #69
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I don't see how or where is expert on virology or China, so I will wait and see, meanwhile trusting somewhat in more expert sources.
You don't think the director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention is an expert source?
 
Old 07-30-2020, 07:42 PM   #70
jefro
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"The entire world could have shut down international travel "

Kind of like... "when do you press the self destruct button."
Some claim that China knew exactly or nearly how dangerous this issue was and should have been screaming "shut down international travel". I guess they didn't think it was that dangerous.
 
  


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