True. But there is so much of it and so many others out there with you that you are not alone. You just have to get over that initial fear and venture out there. You won't regret it when you do.

In this case I think you are missing the point P.Parr tried to discuss: It's not administrators jobs -- though for those you are absolutely right.

It's Joe Sixpack, wanting to try a new operating system he's heard about, chaper, fast, etc.etc. Joe has no computer savvy and with his old Winxx he always reinstalled if (I mean when ) there were troubles. He is NOT a sysadmin.

Not withstanding the fact that even Joe has to learn in life, he has to start somewhere after having seen it is worth his while -- and that is after the installation of Linux and trying out some features. So give him a break and go gentle on him, like in the above mentioned rant: http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullerm.../winstupid1.php he is stupid but he also deserves a chance -- without you raising the barrier too high.

Agreed, Joe six pack is the guy who comes looking for help. If you look back at some of the posts in this thread though you will see sys-admin boasting 15 years experience just plain not even trying, not asking for help, just flame on and away they go. It's too hard so there, is the attitude from them. That's what he's referring about the admins and what my rants are about also. The people who are knowedgable with computers just wanting things dumbed down and handed to them.

Joe can come for help anytime, we'll do what we can. He's ready and willing to learn. He's got an open mind and wants this to work for him, not to find the faults why it won't work.

Granted. I didn't refer to those. They can go ... . On the other hand, I don't think I'd really count them as computer knowledgeable, though. Who doesn't want to learn didn't want to learn and did not learn IMHO .

Yeah, and he's the guy who'd appreciate an easier entrance / transition-from-windows. P.Parr actually did not suggest to "dumb Linux down". As I understood him he suggested facilitating the adaptation of / to Linux and that I'd endorse.

Well...first of all, I have tried occasionally and a bit half-hearted to switch to linux the past few years, and every time I got a little bit further, but always I stumbled upon something I just couldn't solve and switched back. I didn't LIKE Windows, but it was easier for me, it has some great software, and it just looked better to me too.
But I like to tinker with computers and curiosity drove me back to linux. Couple of months ago I tried Fedora Core 1 and got stuck at configuring samba.

But now I run SuSe 9.1...and well...it does everything Windows does, and I feel like I haven't even explored a tenth of what this can do for me. And I encountered some problems, solved them (mostly with the help of this forum), and everything works. AND looks beautiful too.

Linux has been compared to a car where you have to spend eight hours to learn how to turn the key and push the pedals, and I agree. It has a steep learning curve.
But you know, the second time you do everything in an hour. And the next time in 15 minutes. And then it just takes you two seconds, and you find out that not only a 15 minute drive now only takes 5 minutes, but you're also in a car where you can look under the hood, and tune everything. Or you can repaint the car, add a new steering wheel, add sixteen seats, a huge trunk, an asskicking soundsystem...I think I made my point.

I'm a driving instructor, and learning how to drive ISN'T easy. But man, once you're in the driving seat and you know how to handle the car...

Let the good times roll

San

To me an Interview Style Install and Setup is dumbing down in a way. That's the windows approach to install. Ask a few no brainer questions and then you're off. Don't learn what is already there and works for so many people, after all they can't be right, make it eaiser if it needs it or not. That's how I view that.

Well, there are already flavours of linux out there which offer this, such as SuSE and Linspire. SuSE is autodetection all the way, its a three step installation with easy-to-understand information on each step down the side. Linspire has been said to have the same user-friendliness as Windoze XP. So, because of this, I think all distros should stay exactly as they are, with a mixture of simplicity and complication. All newbies have to do is pick the right one.

I have read a lot of the messages in this thread and have to say that the contributors in general know a lot more about computers than myself. I found Gebiots (hope I spelt that right) rant very funny (yes I did read the whole thing) and he demonstrated admirably how the general purpose computer can be a very complicated beast to the uninitiated. My initial post pales in comparison to the many posts here.

It appears that Linux is worth studying even though I'm half way through a booklet describing the best way of, and the tools required, to repair old lathe and plaster ceilings. Yes, I know. Why should I bother when there's plaster board and if too many heavy trucks go past your old house when you've finnished then it may crack again. Well the fact is that I will know deep down that there is plaster board up there instead of those old cut and nailed bits of lathe that I have painstakingly repaired and plastered.

I think that's what Linux is about. So because I'm half way through repairing my old ceilings I intend to keep my Windows 2000 SP4 (plaster board) partition running my essential stuff. I will keep my installed Mandrake 10 Community edition (lathe and plaster), which I hasten to add is quite stable, on my box and endeavour to find out how it's all screwed together.

I've even downloaded a file from IBM that lists all the essential Linux config files and the penalties if you fiddle with the wrong ones.

VI is a great editor if your savvy but then I doubt if many Windows 98 users know why it was designed like that.

Great Thread

Yeah,right.Suse and Mandrake and others like knoppix and peanut have really eased their install processes and general functioning with gui's for almost every app.Sure,people migrating from redmondsoft will struggle(and sometimes,a hell lot) with even simple tasks in Linux,but that's a really great approach to understanding the system.Experimenting is the name of the game in UNIX-like os's.In windoze,you just interact with the gui and not the system.Windoze users never get to have a feel of their system,and even experienced ones make lousy system administrators.Tweaking the system to get the most out of it has been the forté of linux.Dumbing down the process of user-system interaction certainly will have a degrading effect as windoze migrants would never even try to access the system from the console if they could just click on an app to launch it,or some daemon does the job for them.
Yes,to invite more people to the linux fold,it'll have to have a friendly approach to newbies.But in doing do,things musn't be oversimplified.Coz knowing human mentality,people would never try to tread the tougher path,if they had easier solutions,and in the process erode the linux community in slow but steady manner.

Apologies to Digiot for spelling his name incorrectly.

Excellently said. There are distros which offer simple installs and some that don't. Choose the right one for you and you'll get what you want, which is what linux is all about to me. The choice of many different things all available for you to pick what you like and discard what you don't.

Could you please post the URL? I'm interested in my "ceilings" as well .

FAO JZL240I-U

Here's the URL for IBM Linux Config Files.

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerwork.../l-config.html

The plaster stuff is top secret (just kidding) at the moment and not on a URL as it's my own method cobbled together from lots of visits to Google sites but I'm sure I can cobble something together in the near future.

@hoarenet Thx

As an experienced Dos/Windows and a total linux newbie I have to say that It's important to make it easy for people to start out in Linux. Guis and other front ends that make simple uses of computers for the non-expert will increase the general use of Linux which has several positives. Forcing Microsoft to deal with real competition is a big one.
The depth and complexity is not going to go away, those of us who want it will keep it alive. I don't see the point in purposely making things harder than they need to be. Making starting out in Linux so hard to discourage the average computer user may make the club more exclusive, but if it works to keep the user base smaller than it needs to be, it's counterproductive.
As I said above, i have a lot of computer experience, but if I had to start with cryptic documentation and only a command line interface, I probably wouldn't have the time to learn the basics. My life is pretty busy and there's work I need to get done on my machines, I have to be able to get at least some usable work out fairly early in the learning curve. I'm running Fedora 2 and using it productively early on, I will learn the deeper stuff as I go. Nyah Levi