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Old 09-23-2011, 11:38 AM   #46
TobiSGD
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All that doesn't change the situation. If I buy a PC (even with Windows pre-installed) they have absolutely no right to lock it to Windows only, at least as long that machine isn't advertised as "Windows only" machine.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 11:48 AM   #47
frieza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Umm... Are you sure about it? As I understand, it is a very tricky legal question.

As I understand it, when you buy hardware...
  1. Physical hardware is yours, no question about it.
  2. A design of hardware (circuitry, chip/microprocessor circuitry) may not be yours - it may be patented by manufacturers and may contain trade secrets.
  3. Firmware and bios most likely are not yours - they are software products designed by somebody.
  4. Hardware requires drivers that most likely do not belong to you (even on linux).
OS booting is related to #3.

Anyway, I do not think that MS would intentionally lock out OS on PC. Their intent is to get more money, and the easier way to do it would be to add extra bell/whistle to OS and generate ton of hype about it. (IMO) Locking out other operating systems does not guarantee profit, but will produce problems.
as for number 3, you're probably right, BUT if someone happenes to reverse engineer a replacement that can be flashed on to the chip, the chip itself is hardware and number 1 applies, you're not modifying the firmware you're erasing it, big difference

as for intentionally locking out linux, no that's just a bonus, doing it intentionally would be illegal, accidentally? oops.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 12:24 PM   #48
H_TeXMeX_H
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Who own the software is irrelevant. Whoever owns it, they have no right to lock you out of your own computer, especially even before you purchase and use it and agree to any EULA. What if I refuse to agree to the M$ EULA ?
 
Old 09-23-2011, 12:48 PM   #49
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Whoever owns it, they have no right to lock you out of your own computer, especially even before you purchase and use it and agree to any EULA.
"Being locked out" presumes that you own computer, already has been using it for some time, and have files stored on it.
You can't be locked out of it before you purchase it. When a brand new machine refuses to boot and doesn't allow to install new system, it is a different story - you have no personal information on it yet, and without UEFI you would call it a "malfunction". In my region I can return such item (that cannot be used for my purposes) within certain period and get full refund - even if it works just fine and I simply disliked the color.

As for your "rights"... can you support your statement with anything? According to WHAT law they have "no right" to do that? You're no lawyer, I am no lawyer, but the whole thing sounds like a complicated gray area that needs to be settled in the court. Please note that *I* am not interested in explanation, but if *you* are afraid of Microsoft forbidding you to boot linux, you should at least know WHY they "have no right" to do that. Just in case this actually happens and you'll decide to sue them. Using word "rights" without knowing which laws grants them doesn't sound very convincing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
What if I refuse to agree to the M$ EULA?
You return item back to the shop and demand a refund.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 12:55 PM   #50
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Actually, if I think over it, this may be very funny. Imagine someone manages to hack that functionality and spreads a malware that locks out Windows from booting.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 01:12 PM   #51
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
You return item back to the shop and demand a refund.
Yes, I will do that, and I want to refund for M$ Window$, NOT for the computer, because I need the computer, and I want them to unlock it as well.

I don't care about the law. If there isn't a law, it needs to be made.

If there is a law that allows M$ to do this, then it must be broken.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 01:24 PM   #52
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I don't care about the law.
Which is your fault. Before shouting about your "rights" you should at least spend some time, do your homework and learn what are your rights and what grants them. If you don't know what are your rights and what grants them, then you can't defend them. Isn't that supposed to be your duty as a citizen, by the way?
 
Old 09-23-2011, 01:56 PM   #53
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Ok, done. I have the right to do whatever I want, and I am the one who grants me this right.

Anyone that says I don't have the right to do something better have a good argument against it or a gun to my head.

I will never say that I don't have the right to do something. I do take into account the chances of being found and arrested.

Why not get back on topic eh ?
 
Old 09-23-2011, 02:08 PM   #54
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Ok, done. I have the right to do whatever I want,
And people like that are shouting about their rights. Pathetic.

You will remain on my ignore list.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 03:56 PM   #55
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It's hard to speculate at this early stage in time of MS's intentions since windows 8 is not out yet. MS may do this or it could be just the usual FUDD. We just have to wait and see.

Either way, it wouldn't affect me since I don't use windows.

The only thing that may worry me is if we build our own systems from scratch and the motherboard has this UEFI chip, will it be expecting a signed OS to be installed.

Or if a person buys a OEM desktop with windows 8 pre-install and decides to wipe out windows completely and install linux or other OS, can this UEFI chip prevent the new OS from booting since it's not signed. Whether it's yes or no, they need to provide the option to turn secure boot off.

Last edited by RedNeck-LQ; 09-23-2011 at 04:07 PM.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 05:57 PM   #56
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
True, but I do buy the hardware, and they have no right to limit me to their OS on my hardware.
Well if you agree by buying the hardware with a loaded OS thus agreement to extend the use with their software driving the hardware means you do not have a leg to stand on. You had better know the hardware and agreements before making a purchase.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 06:04 PM   #57
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Hi,



Well if you agree by buying the hardware with a loaded OS thus agreement to extend the use with their software driving the hardware means you do not have a leg to stand on. You had better know the hardware and agreements before making a purchase.
As long it is not advertized as "Windows only" I would think it should be possible to install whatever I want on a machine.
I wonder if it isn't counterproductive for Microsoft when locked systems are sold. For example, when a buyer of a locked machine later wants to try a different operating system and he recognizes that Microsoft locked him out he may buy a system without Windows the next time.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 06:25 PM   #58
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I guess this may be similar to the Win 9x days, when OEMs came out with those Winmodems, Winprinters, Win sound cards that wouldn't work with Linux.

Now they will have Win computers....interesting! This is a very gray area and since Win8 is not released yet, we have to wait and see what happens.
 
Old 09-24-2011, 09:59 AM   #59
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
As long it is not advertized as "Windows only" I would think it should be possible to install whatever I want on a machine.
I wonder if it isn't counterproductive for Microsoft when locked systems are sold. For example, when a buyer of a locked machine later wants to try a different operating system and he recognizes that Microsoft locked him out he may buy a system without Windows the next time.
Really no different when one makes a purchase for other hardware. Be it computers, cars or refrigerators, one really has to know or do research before the purchase. If you purchase a car then you had better be aware that it comes setup the way that you want and able to perform to your expectation(s). If the hardware was a frig then if it doesn't come with a icemaker then you should get one that does in order to make ice. You do have the right to make the decision to buy things or not. I really feel for some users that do not have a clue about what to buy or not. We here at LQ see this all the time with people who want recommendations for this hardware or that. What is the best, which to buy and so on. LQ members are helpful but some members will relate to their personal experiences and not provide a true sample or suggestion.

But if you make the major purchase sight unseen(hands on/testing) or without knowing agreements or configuration then you could be locked into the purchase by the purchase/consumer agreement laws here in the USA. You do have the right to return within a 3 day period. You can invalidate/void agreements within that 3 day grace period for major purchases.

Consumer grade computer appliances are becoming systems that are controlled by either vendors or OS specific driven hardware, i.e; M$, Apple, Google. Classic example: Netbooks that are really becoming hardware that eventually will be locked or limited consumer configuration.

Personally I really am uncomfortable with the way computer hardware/software are evolving in the propriety arena. It's not that one person can do much about changing things. Reminds me of the days when we had closeted computer rooms that controlled system environments for all users.

PC users unite! Long live Personal Computers. Sorry but those will fade as did the Studebaker.
 
Old 09-24-2011, 10:23 AM   #60
TobiSGD
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Of course you have to inform yourself if the system is compatible with the OS you want to run on it, but in this case it may be totally compatible, but you are locked out nonetheless.
To make things worse, you can get two absolutely identical systems, to the very least part identical, but one has the Microsoft key in it and one has no key. One will lock you out, one not.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 09-24-2011 at 10:38 AM.
 
  


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