The Faith & Religion mega Thread

No matter what sensible, rational, arguments in favour of evolution you put forward, you'll never convince people like ShaanAli and bluegospel. Their minds are closed, locked up tight, and they've lost the keys.

Originally Posted by brianL Their minds are closed, locked up tight, and they've lost the keys.

If there's a locked door and no keys, you can always use explosives.

Originally Posted by SigTerm If there's a locked door and no keys, you can always use explosives.

Mmm, good idea. Literally blow their minds?

More news... deep ocean life uses hydrogen as an energy source: http://news.yahoo.com/where-sun-dont...163406174.html

Further proof that life fits itself to its environment, the environment was not created to fit life.

Originally Posted by brianL No matter what sensible, rational, arguments in favour of evolution you put forward, you'll never convince people like ShaanAli and bluegospel. Their minds are closed, locked up tight, and they've lost the keys.

What about us nut-jobs that believe in God and believe in evolution to a point? Strange people that believe God is the director of the chaos? I may think evolution allows things to adapt to their environment but I'm not a monkey's uncle.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid What about us nut-jobs that believe in God and believe in evolution to a point? Strange people that believe God is the director of the chaos? I may think evolution allows things to adapt to their environment but I'm not a monkey's uncle.

That is this micro-evolution and macro-evolution thing, right? AFAIK this would only be possible if you would have either have two sets of DNA (one mutable - for minor changes/adaptions, the other immutable - so that major changes can't occur) or one set of DNA with mutable (minor changes) and immutable parts (no major changes). None of both have been seen yet by any scientist in any creature. And the genes also would have to magically know their function to settle in the right point (or set) of the DNA.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid What about us nut-jobs that believe in God and believe in evolution to a point?{...}

You are missing the point - we all have free will. Even Evolution doesn't have "killer evidence" yet that can 100% deny Aliens or Gods or other belief and can be questioned itself but the trouble is when some people force their belief as reality to others. IMO the perfect test is just to be honest with yourself - it is your life afterall. For example imagine you are in extreme situation like your life hangs on edge of cliff and if you still don't say "God help me!" while waiting for help then you really don't believe at all - there is nothing to gain if you lie to yourself. Live your life like you wish just don't bother others without valid reasons. Next year idea will show if believers are true or false anyway.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid What about us nut-jobs that believe in God and believe in evolution to a point? Strange people that believe God is the director of the chaos? I may think evolution allows things to adapt to their environment but I'm not a monkey's uncle.

Of course not. You're a monkey's nephew.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid What about us nut-jobs that believe in God and believe in evolution to a point? Strange people that believe God is the director of the chaos? I may think evolution allows things to adapt to their environment but I'm not a monkey's uncle.

You can believe in whatever you want. However, if you claim that your belief is the truth, you're expected to be able to prove it. If you accept that your belief may be "false" (non-zero possibility), then I have no quarrel with you.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD AFAIK this would only be possible if you would have either have two sets of DNA (one mutable - for minor changes/adaptions, the other immutable - so that major changes can't occur) or one set of DNA with mutable (minor changes) and immutable parts (no major changes).

Why do you think so?
Anything that mutates too far will die, so I see no problem. The rest of the genes come from parents, so there should be no problem if entire DNA can change. I'm no biologist but in genetic algorithm recombination plays important part, mutation is not the only mechanism of altering algorithm's DNA.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Anything that mutates too far will die, so I see no problem.

How do you come to that conclusion? As long as the creature is viable and fertile (and may be fits better to the environment) there is no reason for the creature to die. And how do you define "too far"? According to the theory of evolution a part of the dinosaurs evolved to our modern birds. Is that "too far"? Or is it "too far" that the ancestor of the primates evolved to humans on one side and to orang-utans (and others) on the other side?

Originally Posted by TobiSGD That is this micro-evolution and macro-evolution thing, right? AFAIK this would only be possible if you would have either have two sets of DNA (one mutable - for minor changes/adaptions, the other immutable - so that major changes can't occur) or one set of DNA with mutable (minor changes) and immutable parts (no major changes). None of both have been seen yet by any scientist in any creature. And the genes also would have to magically know their function to settle in the right point (or set) of the DNA.

You got to forgive me since all my knowledge of evolution came from public high school biology or what I read online. As I understand it evolution is basically the belief that life adapts to an environment if having a longer beak helps something survive better than a shorter beak, the longer beaks will start being more common in the species than the shorter. Now here's where some people get confused/take sides/whatever, to what degree does life adapt? An open-minded believer may say God created and told the protozoa to crawl out of the ocean. Where others may say God organized the fish and crawly things and that is where they started. I guess at this point I ask myself does it matter? Is my faith shaken because God is working with protozoas? is that harder or easier to believe than he just created people? Does it matter? I don't think creationism is any easier to prove than there is a God. I find where my beliefs are and justify it in my mind.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD And how do you define "too far"?

• Incompatible with sustaining life in itself. Missing organs / unoperational organs, etc. I.e. if an animal is born without brain/heart, have one organ instead of another, it is less likely to survive.
• Extreme mutation that breaks process that governs division of an initial cell and growth of embryo.

In one of the of the movies about science (something from "Discovery", I think - it was pretty dumbed-down, though), scientists said that at this point they can manipulate fly's DNA to make it grow legs instead of head, etc. I.e. switch one body part with another. The resulting fly-"monster", however, will die. This is exactly what I was talking about. If a part of DNA that governs growth of initial embryo (organ placement/cell division) gets extremely changed, resulting creature is unlikely to survive or even be born.

You haven't answered my question, though - why do you think some part of DNA should be "write-protected"?

Originally Posted by SigTerm You can believe in whatever you want. However, if you claim that your belief is the truth, you're expected to be able to prove it. If you accept that your belief may be "false" (non-zero possibility), then I have no quarrel with you.

Ah one of the great things in life. How much is required for belief? And who do I need to prove it to? This is why I have a hard time committing to the religion threads. I have spent time sharing my beliefs when I was younger and found that sharing strengthens the person that is sharing, it might not do anything for the person they are sharing with. A false belief that leads you to do correct things doesn't sound false to me. So I guess the question is what is religion doing for me? If I end this life and my beliefs have told me to be kind to others, love my family, help my fellow man, etc, etc even if I fizzle out and nothing happens when I die it's been a valid pursuit.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid You got to forgive me since all my knowledge of evolution came from public high school biology or what I read online. As I understand it evolution is basically the belief that life adapts to an environment if having a longer beak helps something survive better than a shorter beak, the longer beaks will start being more common in the species than the shorter.

It depends on how much having a longer beak really helps. If the longer beak really helps the beast obtain more food, making it stronger, and able to fight off short-beaked males for breeding rights, then yes, the long-beaks will begin to displace short-beaks in the species. Then again, the long-beaks might specialize in a particular kind of food that short-beaks can't reach, phasing them out of competition with short-beaks for food resources, and coupled with behavioral changes that lead to still other adaptations, this could push the long-beaks into their own species, living side-by-side with short-beaks. Then, along comes a significant ecological event... a climate change, a new competitor moves in, a new predator, etc., and either animal could either adapt further, spawn new subspecies altogether, and/or become extinct.

In other words, it's a completely random process, with so many factors influencing it that the outcome cannot be reasonably predicted.

Originally Posted by Blinker_Fluid I find where my beliefs are and justify it in my mind.

Indeed, and this is exactly the problem. You start by assuming God exists, and then you beat any new information until it fits with that view. If you don't start with that assumption, you'd never conclude that God exists, based on the information alone.

Originally Posted by SigTerm why do you think some part of DNA should be "write-protected"?

I am not a biologist either, but in my understanding mutations are random. So if I assume that there is no way that one life-form evolves into another (macro-evolution, like dinosaurs evolved to birds), which is possible if all parts of the DNA are "writable", I must also assume that there are immutable parts of the DNA that prohibit this kind of mutation. At least that is how understand that stuff. If there is some one more knowledgeable on biology and DNA here feel free to correct me, I am always willing to learn.