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Old 05-07-2004, 07:04 PM   #1
HadesThunder
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Nature Of War


T Zsu understood the tactics of war in his book the Art Of War, but after his time, it seems the world does not understand the nature of war. Every flee, man and nation have pride and they run tournaments to restore their pride. When greed becomes a virtue they exceed casual bloodshed with humiliation. The allies were the hereos of WW2 and while raiding Berlin they beat up innocent reich civilians in their conquest of Berlin. Brittish, Russian and American soldiers bludgeoned old people and children while capturing berlin. Ofcause the Germans were to blame for the war and being of Russian descent I can not condone how my nations army treated a defeated enemy.
All I know is that human nature does not change. The Coalition want to make the war on terrorism into a medical operation. How stupid are they? During the crusades the Knights sacked Sarecen land, then failed and were badly treated in return.
Our technology may change, but the human soul will not change quickly. War will always bring horror and so long as another ideal wishes to conquer another wish there will always be evil and good.
Every nation is the same, it has its bastards and its heroes. This is not limited to land or religion. Instead of raising its banner why can not every man in every nation choose what side he wants to serve and try with all his might to vanquish the enemy? Or are they too busy supporting a fake football team while thousands die?
 
Old 05-07-2004, 07:17 PM   #2
win32sux
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

-- John S. Mill (1806-1873)



Last edited by win32sux; 05-07-2004 at 07:19 PM.
 
Old 05-07-2004, 09:21 PM   #3
BajaNick
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Quote:
Originally posted by win32sux
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

-- John S. Mill (1806-1873)
Even though I dont want to admit it, Thats true.
 
Old 05-07-2004, 10:11 PM   #4
mikshaw
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True, but only to a point. That point is crossed daily by warmongering nations and individuals who see the world as "us against them". I can accept war only when it is in defense of your family and your homeland, which isn't the case in my country's current situation.
 
Old 05-08-2004, 03:10 AM   #5
schatoor
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Some things are worth fighting for. Freedom is one of them. I understand what the original poster was talking about; the terrible misconduct of American soldiers in Iraq. Those pictures of Iraqi prisoners send shock waves trough out the world.
Defending you self is one thing, but what regularly happens in war, tourtcher, humiliating, crimes against humanity, is quite something else.
 
Old 05-08-2004, 03:37 AM   #6
SciYro
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mikshaw: America is only defending itself!, after all, if America doesn't flex its *eeerm*, bombs and guns at Innocent people, then it (it being the people that are America) will lose money, and there might be piece and oil will be out dates with a new energy source thats cheaper, and America can no longer suppress not only the world, but the people that live on its (again, it is the people that are America, and they are the military, and high up assholes that only care money and power),

so you see?, America is only defending its money and power by killing and torturing people for no apparent reason,... i don't see people get all concern when it happens in America, .......

and if you don't believe me, then compare the Soviet union to the US

1) they have no free speech
2) you are told what to do
3) you have no property, even you are a slave to them, you don't even own your life
4) they assassinate people they don't like, or just lock em up
5) they are only concerned with them selfs

those are all i know off the top of my head right now,,, and if you say that its not true in America, then you are wrong,,.. in America public school systems and whatnot are used to brainwash children into thinking America is good and righteous place.... its only some stupid cover, anyone taking even a second to look at some stuff will see that theres total and complete corruption of people who want power.. the military can send people to there deaths by use of a "draft" if congress says so... they can censor anything they want (just look at the FCC), they can (and mostly likely will, have, and do) kill people they don't like, maybe in a "accident" (yea right..),, they can seize your property, and lock you up for no reason, (altho its temporary, they can always say they "forget" about you, and that they are "sorry), and they also torture people for no apparent reason.. and call it "policing action" ,, someone should tell them that beating people up for no reason to "put cuffs" on them, then yank them around like rag dolls for no reason is torture.... hell,, its more dangerous in America then it is right beside a fusion bomb ready to go off in 3 seconds ..

basically there will and always will be war and suffering so long as animals are still around,. the one constant is that the strong shall live and the week shall parish, ... power ain't everything, those "powerful" people can be as week as a piece of paper, take away there money and they starve to death, take away there cars and they die of exhaustion...
in my experience there are a few people
1) survivors, those that will live even when the world ends, people here are usually stuck here and have there own minds to do what they want
2) dependents, those that depend, and usually manipulate the morons.. these people usually have "power"
3) morons, people just going around day to day doing anything they are told
4) half wits, smart people that really don't care enough to be a dependent, and are stuck between moron and dependent. they also have minds (they are smart remember?) but go around day to day like the morons mostly, now and then thinking more then just what is in front of them, or just not caring enough as they are busy with some other matter. these also don't usually tend to be mean power hungry people

those are the main, there are always crosses between them tho, and at anytime a person can shift from one to the other, and that list is in no means any order,, and no offense meant to anyone, and this is only a generalization- so no need to get too picky with it

Last edited by SciYro; 05-08-2004 at 03:40 AM.
 
Old 05-08-2004, 06:20 AM   #7
HadesThunder
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"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

But if everyone was only willing to fight for their own personal safety, would not everyone live in harmony, as they would be unwilling to jeperdise that safety by attacking someone else?
 
Old 05-08-2004, 09:35 AM   #8
schatoor
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He people, lets not give the mods an excuse to close this thread. Keep it civilized and nuanced please
 
Old 05-08-2004, 04:49 PM   #9
pepsi
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

-- John S. Mill (1806-1873)
is fighting for a end to war a sign that we have nothing to fight for? is a pecful protest a sign that we are complacent? i think that guys thinking is a bit to narrow minded unless war is ment to sympolise protest and progress in general
 
Old 05-15-2004, 10:06 AM   #10
lone_nut
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I have a great respect for those who give there lives for freedom, but giving you lives for freedom doesn't have to be in war, (allthough this could be an effective way) it could be the way Gandigh did it, by showing that whatever the english did, he wouldn't kill anybody. Today India is free.
 
Old 05-15-2004, 10:16 AM   #11
Megamieuwsel
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Quote:
Today India is free.
You might want to put some quotation-marks around the word free in that phrase , for in India , your "freedom" largely depends on what Caste you're born in.

They *did* get rid of the british , though.
 
Old 05-15-2004, 11:29 AM   #12
pepsi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Megamieuwsel
You might want to put some quotation-marks around the word free in that phrase , for in India , your "freedom" largely depends on what Caste you're born in.

They *did* get rid of the british , though.
it takes time for everything to expand, in the world largest democracy of 1 billion plus it just takes a little more time, besides there much worse contries ie Rwanda, Somalia, some middle Eastern countries
 
Old 05-15-2004, 11:38 AM   #13
Megamieuwsel
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Can't disagree with you there ; Just posted that to put it into perspective.
 
Old 05-16-2004, 08:56 AM   #14
Crito
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We have a caste system in America too, though nobody admits it. If you look at the prison population the majority of inmates are poor people. If you further break down sentences by wealth you'll find poor people get longer sentences than rich people also, even when the crimes are identical.

The media would like us to believe the prisoner abuse in Iraq is an isolated incident, but the fact is Americans are abused and humiliated by other Americans in American prisons every day, but that never gets reported. Sleep deprivation is a tactic the FBI has used many times. Waco, as just one example, immediately comes to mind.

In any case, I find much of the outrage over these recent events disingenuous. Where were our senators when the same or similar acts were being perpetrated against Americans by Americans? Seems if there's no political benefit to protesting such practices they don't have anything to say.
 
Old 05-17-2004, 08:53 PM   #15
hyper guy
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emotional environment: unfriendly

For a long time now I have had this sinking feeling that that idyllic, oft dreamt about, star-trekian best-case scenario for humankind wherein everyone makes nice-nice with everyone else, all day, every day, 365 days a year is, at best, an extremely fragile one. All it takes is one miserable bad apple and there goes a domino chain-reaction of pissyness running rampant throughout society.

I have an uncomfortable feeling that there will always be juuust enough nasties in any society to keep the otherwise do-gooders from being permanently pious. And if there will always be (seemingly) random acts of nastiness around, there will enevitably arise skirmishes from time to time.

I dunno about that whole thing re if ppl are naturally born good and learn evil (or vice versa), but at some point we all act on feelings of insecurity, jealousy or righteous indignation. Most of us don't stay in that state, fortunately, but we usually do slough those emotions on to somebody -- it just gets recycled, baby.

other thots:
* For those who're interested, i highly recommend checking out the documentary, "The Fog of War." We don't know how close the human race has come to being totally expunged. The Cold War with its threat of mutual self-destruction isn't anything to hang your hat on.

* It was some famous hip-hop gang guy (i forget which) who said (in effect) that the whole world is made up of gangs -- and the grand ol u.s. of a is just the world's biggest/strongest (West SIDE!!). I thought it an interesting perspective.
 
  


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