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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-05-2003, 07:56 PM   #166
prophet621
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Good analogy there Tink. Though I don't entirely agree with it here. Most newbie, myself included, do learn how to use Linux. People are always going to want sopmething different in any OS, Linux, Windows, Solaris, Mac..etc. No OS is perfect and I see nothing wrong with wanting other options, Linux is filled with options, some people just want a few easier ones, though I'm sure most wouldn't want it at the risk of losing the control and power that comes with Linux.

Simply because Windows does it this way and yes they are more familiar with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. Not everything about Windows is bad. Besides, whats wrong with taking an idea from Windows, that doesn't mean anyone is trying to turn it into Windows. For example, I'm comfortable setting sources and using apt to install software, I would rather have something to double click though.

There are many occasions when I install something, something else stops working, this happens often, I would like to see a warning message prior to this happening, rather than having to know every detail and dependencie of my currently installed apps and the one I am installing so I know if something is going to stop working with a newer lib.

From the newbies I've talked to, it's not that we always want something changed simply to suit us and who cares who liked it the other way. It's more accurate to say that we would like to see some things added, other options and methods of doing things.

Linux has come a long way since my first installation of Mandrake 5 (I think it was 5) and it's getting better and easier with every distro and release. Linux is going to continue to evolve, personally I don't see any drawbacks to including newer, more powerful and easier to use features provided it doesn't weaken any of the features that attracted so many to it in the first place.

I guess to sum it up, people do need to conform to the OS they are using, however, that OS also has to conform to the people.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 08:35 PM   #167
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by prophet621
Good analogy there Tink. Though I don't entirely agree with it here. Most newbie, myself included, do learn how to use Linux. People are always going to want sopmething different in any OS, Linux, Windows, Solaris, Mac..etc. No OS is perfect and I see nothing wrong with wanting other options, Linux is filled with options, some people just want a few easier ones, though I'm sure most wouldn't want it at the risk of losing the control and power that comes with Linux.
I didn't say that this is the case in general,
either, and as far as I recall I only got that
militant twice since I joined LQ ... I have no
problem with people wanting things done
differently, I do have, however, a problem
with people who refuse to try the available
options before they start their rant...

Quote:
There are many occasions when I install something, something else stops working, this happens often, I would like to see a warning message prior to this happening, rather than having to know every detail and dependencie of my currently installed apps and the one I am installing so I know if something is going to stop working with a newer lib.
To implement something like that you'd need
some sort of central global registrar that keeps
track of everything, and you'd have to get in
touch with it before attempting to install things.
I can't imagine that anyone (individual or small
company) would want to do this, since that would
mean that they have to test every thinkable
combination of software and hardware ;)

An older version CAN'T know about possible
risks a newer version of it might bring. Just
think about it for a while.


Quote:
From the newbies I've talked to, it's not that we always want something changed simply to suit us and who cares who liked it the other way. It's more accurate to say that we would like to see some things added, other options and methods of doing things.
I see the point, but again: it's all run by volunteers.
If it's a big team like the KDE guys or some other
collaborative (well organised?) projects you can
go and make a feature request. And again, that's
completely different from coming to a support forum
and whining, ranting and insulting the guys who
are trying to help. ;)

Quote:
Linux has come a long way since my first installation of Mandrake 5 (I think it was 5) and it's getting better and easier with every distro and release. Linux is going to continue to evolve, personally I don't see any drawbacks to including newer, more powerful and easier to use features provided it doesn't weaken any of the features that attracted so many to it in the first place.
I'm afraid that the old saying:"If you make a product
idiot-proof only an idiot will use it" has been on my
mind for too long. In software design you sometimes
have to make sacrifices on the side of "friendly" to
keep a product usable and maintainable. And in my
experience with the administration of large numbers
of computers any thing achieved by using a GUI is
a design flaw ;)


Cheers,
Tink

Last edited by Tinkster; 05-05-2003 at 08:37 PM.
 
Old 05-05-2003, 09:29 PM   #168
the anti-riced
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im a newbie i dont care that its hard to learn, im kinda lookin forward to it
 
Old 05-05-2003, 09:43 PM   #169
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by the anti-riced
im a newbie i dont care that its hard to learn, im kinda lookin forward to it
/me gives Tom AKA anti-riced a warm welcome :)

That's the spirit mate! :D

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-06-2003, 04:46 AM   #170
bigjohn
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Quote:
I have no problem with people wanting things done differently, I do have, however, a problem with people who refuse to try the available options before they start their rant...
A valid point tinkster, though surely it depends on ones level of knowledge about a given subject, I for one don't really know where else I can go to rant about something.

Your level of IT knowledge can only be of benefit to the likes of me (though I must say that I don't always understand or follow it).

I often experience difficulty when trying to do things with my mandrake install, and it is only to be expected that if I have managed to do a similar thing under wind0w$ that has been straightforward, I am going to make comparison's, and use phrases like "as easily as wind0w$", I feel that this is a long way from arrogance, but very close to ignorance (well it certainly is in my case).

I suppose that it's my bad luck not to be blessed with the ability to analyse the problems I experience, and this manifests itself with frustrations and criticsm, this results in some of my input sounding like a rant, though it's really meant as irony.



Is it me, or was this thread starting to sound like "handbags at dawn" a page or two back? though having just reviewed some of the more recent point raised, I concur with some and strongly disagree with others. I feel that some of the "posters" should review what they have typed, because I for one would not like others to think that I have managed to configure a "flame thrower" as a text input device. And those who are getting just a little emotive, should really try to be more "constructive", because when using comparison, it is all too easy to take the "my point is best" standpoint.
 
Old 05-06-2003, 05:18 AM   #171
Windows Runaway
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Linix hard.YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Please if you can't be constructive go away nobody want to read though pages of petty arguements to find the intelligent conversations going on around them

Last edited by Windows Runaway; 05-06-2003 at 05:44 AM.
 
Old 05-06-2003, 06:01 AM   #172
Windows Runaway
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
To implement something like that you'd need
some sort of central global registrar that keeps
track of everything, and you'd have to get in
touch with it before attempting to install things.
I can't imagine that anyone (individual or small
company) would want to do this, since that would
mean that they have to test every thinkable
combination of software and hardware

An older version CAN'T know about possible
risks a newer version of it might bring. Just
think about it for a while.


Cheers,
Tink
what it seemed to me that he wanted was to be told if multiple apps used a library before it's replaced, this isn't that hard though it will reduce system performance and waste drive space, but not that hard to implememnt, if nothing else you just need a install program to create a log that lists the the application and the libraries installed and then reports any clashes in the log file, i'm not an expert programmer but i could do that much.
 
Old 05-06-2003, 01:59 PM   #173
Paul Parr
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Its nice to finally see this thread get back in line.

There is nothing wrong with constuctive critisim if it helps us all learn something. I think we can give our opinions, and make or points with out resorting to insults from here on out. We all come from different backgrounds, and experiences, lets learn to appreciate that and try to respect each other as civilized people whom all share a common interest and passion that is Linux.

Messiah?! Now that was funny! Oh man!

prophet621,
I totally agree with you and I couldn't have said it better.

I also want to add that (IMHO) I don't think Linux is about taking sides. Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not about the idea of public development and collaboration in order to move the OS forward, keep it alive and provide more options. Is it so unfortunate that many of the improvements have given us much more attactive and functional, and user friendly distributions of Linux?

I apologize most profusely for having limited exposure to linux, most of my experience is with the Amiga, and Windows. I never would have switched to the PC if it wasn't for the Windows GUI, and even then it did't compare with the Amiga OS. (Win95 was probably a better comparison.)

I think that in the same way that Dos/Windows was severly behind the Amiga OS in the early days, that Windows has finally supassed it in terms of developement and improvements, I tend to look at Linux in a simular way now. Linux is the one improving at an incredable rate now and most likely to become my choice over Windows in the possible near future. (I apologize for using Windows as my comparison but its what my current experience is with.)

When I switched over from the Amiga OS to Windows, I never said "I wish the Amiga OS was Windows.", nor did I expect I expect it to be. (Actually I switched because of the hardware advancements on the PC. The Amiga was too expensive and to propritory, which is partly why I would like to move to Linux, because Windows is too limiting, expensive and propritory, such as it only works on one type of cpu for example) It just so happened that Windows was headed in the direction I most wanted to go in at the time. (IMHO) the same is true for my view of Linux, I have gotten most of what I want out of Windows, now I want to go beyond that, and I see Linux as the OS capable of doing that. However until I can find a distro that at least does everything I can do with windows as easily as I can do it in Windows then Linux will (IMHO) is still playing catch up. (Thats not to say that Linux is not as easy to install or use as Windows, because it is depending on the Distribution you use, but on the surface windows makes it easy to configure if your a first time user. (First time users of Windows vs First Time users of Linux have a very different learning curve to adjust to.) Its that intial setup and config of the OS and applications that I'd like to have (IMHO) a more efficient and effective way of achieving.
(I don't expect Linux to be a replacement for Windows in General, but I would like for it to replace Windows for Me.) I am a GUI user because I choose to be one, not because Windows forced me too. Again I was using the Amiga OS long before I was using Windows. I just like the GUI for the things I want to do.

I also think that in the same manner we are trying to be specific about the Linux Distros we talk about, maybe we should also be specific about the Windows versions we talk about in comparison because not all Windows are the same either.)

I am using Redhat 9 to compare with Windows XP specifically. Simply because these are what I have the most exposure too and experience with. (please don't hate me for being a Windows user or only having tried Red hat.)

If I were brought up on Dos or Unix or some other command line OS which I preferred I would probably have a completely different view of what I wanted my version of Linux to be. (IMHO) I think thats why we have the Pro Slackware users and the Pro Mandrake users for example. Why should they fight amongst themselves? You know what you want out of Linux and I know what I want out of Linux, so lets leave it at that. (I am not trying to violate slackware and turn it into something you'd hate. By all means keep slackware as it is, if you like it be happy with it. (No one is forcing anything on anyone else.)

Thats what Linux is about OPTIONS and FREEDOM of choice. Correct?

Last edited by Paul Parr; 05-06-2003 at 03:28 PM.
 
Old 05-06-2003, 02:54 PM   #174
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Windows Runaway
what it seemed to me that he wanted was to be told if multiple apps used a library before it's replaced,
If you got him right he can stop searching since he
seems to be using Mdk. I'd think that he already has
that tool ... it's called RPM? :)
[code]
rpm -q --whatrequires <capability>
[code]

I believe that debian's apt tools have a similar
feature ...

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-06-2003, 03:02 PM   #175
Paul Parr
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Tinkster,
For what its worth, I do value your experience and expertise, when you use your super powers for good and not evil.

I am sure I can still learn a few things from you, if your willing to continue sharing your constructive knowledge, as I have seen is possible from what your last few posts have shown.

Peace.
 
Old 05-06-2003, 03:11 PM   #176
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigjohn
A valid point tinkster, though surely it depends on ones level of knowledge about a given subject, I for one don't really know where else I can go to rant about something.
I guess it all boils down to discipline [from
latin disco, to learn], the will to learn ... :)

There is no offense meant, but I find that
a large number of people today have lost
the will to acquire knowledge (and I think
that I have said that repeatedly here), or
haven't learnt how learn/retrieve information.

If I encounter something new I will fairly soon
make a decision: a) it's worth learning, and
so I will learn (or at least try hard to do so, I'm
getting slower with age ;}) or b) forget about
the whole thing.

Quote:
Is it me, or was this thread starting to sound like "handbags at dawn" a page or two back?
I find a good mud-wrestle every once in a while
quite refreshing ;)

Quote:
should really try to be more "constructive", because when using comparison, it is all too easy to take the "my point is best" standpoint.
Now, constructive is a very "flexible" word... :)
In the terms of this being a linux-support site
a question like "Why does Linux not implement
this feature that I loved so much in Windows?"
is kind of out of place from the start and will most
likely evoke an emotional response ... if someone
seeks that kind of discussion there's a wide range
of .<OS>.advocay newsgroups, and people can
bash Linux to their hearts content. My point, once
again, being that I can't go visit someone and
try to explain to him that he has arranged his lounge
in an utterly wrong way :) (even if I had the feeling
that he did I wouldn't tell him that for reasons of
good upbringing and manners since it's about taste ...
If I found pictures of unethical or criminal content
I'd confront him)

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-06-2003, 03:16 PM   #177
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Parr
Tinkster,
For what its worth, I do value your experience and expertise, when you use your super powers for good and not evil. :)

I am sure I can still learn a few things from you, if your willing to continue sharing your constructive knowledge, as I have seen is possible from what your last few posts have shown.

Peace.
I don't have super-powers Paul, I'm still learning
new stuff about Linux every day, just because it
IS so versatile, and allows for stuff to be done in
a million different ways.

I do not think that I've been "helpful" only through
my last few posts... 'nuf' said.

Peace mate ... and God bless.

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-06-2003, 04:17 PM   #178
akolff
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The Long View

My first computer experiance was in 1965 programing in Fortran IV, punch cards and all. Ease of use is only a small part of the reason for the spread of computers in the general population. Price point combined with usable applictions was the real biggie.

Linux it self has a great price point. But, the hardware cost is the same for almost any OS today. What may win the war for Open Source is the other software that is becoming easier and more friendly Open Office, etc. And yes ease of installation and stability are part of that equation, but not all of it.

People will invest time if the end product is proven and valuable to them. Helping someone to do real work will win a convert even if it takes extra work.

God Bless,
Al
 
Old 09-05-2003, 08:05 AM   #179
shermang
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A lot of what _I_ see happen on these forums is the younger crowd try to use Linux. To use it for daily living they have to play games like Counter-Strike, what does this take? _Wine_.
What ends up happening is these people use Linux for a day or two and manage to get Wine installed and setup in a hurried attempt to get back into their none stop game playing life style, without learning how to use Linux. They then run into simple problems that are only there because they're trying to use a program that
A) isn't finished yet
B) isn't meant to be used for games
C) requires some knowledge of Linux to use.


This creates dozens of threads each day that we see saying "Ohhhh! Linux is so HARD! how do i play counterstrke!??!!!?!?!?????!11"

Rushing to play games on Linux will make the whole OS seem like hell. Don't try to use Wine to play games and Linux will be an absolute joy to use.

EDIT: ooooops, sorry for digging up an old thread, I saw it when I was searching for something else and thought I could make a good reply, I didn't see the date.

Last edited by shermang; 09-05-2003 at 08:09 AM.
 
Old 09-06-2003, 08:37 PM   #180
Azriel924
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I don't see why there can't be a compromise

As a Linux noob with years of M$ experience I don't see why there can't be a compromise on the usability/functionality issue. I have 20+ years working with DOS and Windows computers and am A+, Network+, MCP and MCSA certified. My short experience with Redhat9 on the x86 platform has been both frustrating and exhilarating. I had no problem getting a good install working 1st try, I'm just a little bent about the difficulty level learning how to add applications and use the command line. Just as Windows allows the knowledgeable person to do far more when they know commands, switches and syntax, I believe Linux could do the same. Give the newbies the option of installing "training wheels" GUI tools while retaining the full power of Linux for experienced users. I'm working very hard to move away from the M$ monopoly and am not stupid or unwilling to RTFM. I respect the Linux users that have paid their dues and enjoy Linux just as it is. I would just like to see Open Source come up with a way to make Windows obsolete for the casual user as well as the elite.
 
  


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