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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-30-2003, 06:11 PM   #136
Looking_Lost
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Bottom line is if they want to break into the mass home market they are going to have to provide some sort of windows point and click and it's done in a tick interface or else your average Joe just ain't going to want to know. I guess some people would be happy with that....keeping it all exclusive...but it would be a real pity if it didn't break out into general use.

Eventually I hope all the hard working people that develop Linux reach the stage where simple things can be done simply with still the added functionality that Linux has now underneath if you want it.

I believe one day they'll do it and get the balance right.
 
Old 04-30-2003, 06:30 PM   #137
Tinkster
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Quote:
Bottom line is if they want to break into the mass home market ...
The bottom line is that there is no THEY who wants
to BREAK into a MARKET :)

It's just a "ginormous", loosely connected
bunch of people who want to optimise
their OS of choice in a way that seems
to work best for them ...

There's no big company behind this all
that wants to blow MS out of their seat.
From what I understand that's never been
Linus' intention, either :), even though he
makes it quite clear he doesn't like MS
or their products.

The fact that there is a few groups of developers
that more (KDE) or less (Gnome) coherently work
on some sort of DesktopManager that bears
a certain resemblance to what a windows user
might find familiar doesn't mean that "this is
Linux" or "This is how you have to work in
Linux" ... it's just ANOTHER choice of how you
CAN work in Linux ... I can't stand either. I use
fluxbox... and weep a tear a day that I can't have
my beloved OS/2's WPS on Linux ;)

And again: the fact that there is so much variation
in Linux is one of the reasons why there's hardly
any attacks by virii/worms/Trojans in this environment.

Any standardisation would change that...

Quote:
I guess some people would be happy with that....keeping it all exclusive...but it would be a real pity if it didn't break out into general use.
And I find it very saddening that people use
"general use" synonymously with "uniform" or
"homogeneous" ...

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-30-2003, 06:33 PM   #138
Sadie Newlinux
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You know.. I haven't voted.. and it's because I've been stressing over it for some time. I'm a newbie user, so I guess I'd fall in catergory one.. but I *like* how tough linux is.. it reminds me of DOS in that respect.. I find figuring it out very satisfying.. frustrating, albeit.. but satisfying.

Still, I can't bring myself to side with the colition in poll choice #3, because I'm not an oldbie. Help! What's a girl to do? Should I vote based on experience? Or on preference for changing the OS, or not at all..

After much deliberation, I've decided not at all. I think the tree choices given are just too vague to really put myself behince, aside from the fact that I just don't fit anywere - lol!

Just my 2c.
 
Old 04-30-2003, 07:14 PM   #139
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Windows Runaway
i think we need to correct a mistake in this tread that is slowly getting worse lets stop saying 'why isn't linux...' and 'but linux is ...' and start telling the truth ie 'why doesn't this linix Distribution do...' and 'but the Distribution xxx does...'
You're ALMOST getting it right mate :)

Linux is a swiss-army knife, a tool-box, a
leatherman ... it's not a pillow, a cushion,
a couch ... one distro might cover it with
pink fluff and replace the screw-driver on
the leatherman with a remote control (eeew,
Mandrake!), one might replace a bunch of
serious tools from the box with a few fancy,
multicoloured gadgets, and make the box too
heavy to carry (eeek, RedHat!), others might
ship a plain leatherman without a padded
holster (Slackware! ;)) ...

None of them, however, mean to be a couch
with a TV set in front... and Linux is not about
"How to be a better Windows?" ... it's about
"Linux is good for what it's good at!" :}

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-30-2003, 10:19 PM   #140
slakmagik
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Cool question, and good point, Womandrake. If it wasn't for IBM and MS personal computing might well never have taken off and the world would be very different. First computer I ever touched was a Vic20, I believe, but the OS that 'introduced me to computing' was DOS 3.3 (though I was always slow with my OS's, as that was around '92 and I ran it forever after that.)

I'm with you, Sadie - never did vote, myself. (DOS and Linux are almost entirely different but, compared to Win9x or NT, they're practically twins.) I probably could vote, though. The thread discussion and the poll topic are somewhat off-kilter. The idea is to make the *install* easier so that you can then learn and use the system, which doesn't have to be any different. If the user can't get the thing to run properly or at all to begin with, they're putting a lot of faith on hearsay about Linux being so great or they're going to give up. Some of the best things you can do with Linux involve the net and sometimes one of the hardest things you can do is connect to that net.

And while I don't think there's any "they" trying to be all things to all people and a hacker may get great satisfaction in the ultimate hack, still the fact that so many people release the software freely means it's not an abstract art to them - they'd like to see the stuff *used* so that it's as practical as it is aesthetic or intellectual. So why not make it usable to more than just a handful, even if not "on every desktop"? Or maybe not - maybe it's just released so fellow hackers can ooh and ahh and it gets picked up by general users as an unfortunate and unavoidable by-product. I dunno. Still, again, the people who are trying to make money off of it by distributing it - packaging it for the masses - seem to often have a shaky grasp of what it means to make something accessible to said masses. It doesn't have to be homogenous and dumbed down... but *working* is always a plus. I see no merit in being an installing and configuring whiz. People who pipe and redirect 37 commands in one line or write shell scripts to get stuff done after installation are more impressive. *g*

All this would be academic if more computers came preinstalled and more used computers were lying around with Linux on them, the way MS is now. There'd be nothing wrong with that. You'd still have to learn how to use your box and the system would still be what it is.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 01:44 AM   #141
Looking_Lost
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Quote:
The bottom line is that there is no THEY who wants
to BREAK into a MARKET
Well what about all the big distributors they are most definitley trying to make it big.



Quote:
And I find it very saddening that people use
"general use" synonymously with "uniform" or
"homogeneous" ...
Not really sure what you mean here at all. I mean general use in the sense that it is widely enough used to be part of common day life. I think it's you who is getting confused - are a certain level of standards and uniform behaviour such a bad thing? If all the components in your computer worked entirely differently from every other component on everyone else's computer then nothing would work for nobody, what's wrong with extending that idea to a software interface?

The whole of computing is based on homogenous standards as are most things in life.

Last edited by Looking_Lost; 05-01-2003 at 01:46 AM.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 06:24 AM   #142
Womandrake
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Personally if my first contact was with linux I doubt I would have continued.. I think I would have been put off computers hehe my 1st contact was with DOS and I hated it and didn't even approach a computer till I was encouraged to use win 95 by a friend who told me it was extremely user friendly, which it was, and that was my beginning of my journey to where I am now.. struggling with linux. Only now can I truly appreciate linux because I used windows.. even if the learning curve is much steeper. So yes Tink, if it took "cow pies to make me appreciate apple pies" hehe God bless.

Last edited by Womandrake; 05-01-2003 at 06:28 AM.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 07:33 AM   #143
Franklin
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Quote:
The whole of computing is based on homogenous standards as are most things in life.
While this may be true, the problem is not with having standards, but with which standards are chosen, how they are chosen, and who benefits most by this choice.

The land scape is littered with superior standards that were dumped in favor of something inferior only because of the financial clout of the companies behind it. Or even worse, because the "general public" chose it with their pocket book without realizing they were choosing something inferior.

I see linux as a kind of public television of computing... you see ideas and points of view that are different on PBS and NPR because they don't have to answer to the potentially narrow points of view and interests of advertisers.

Quote:
Well what about all the big distributors they are most definitley trying to make it big.
As for what the goals of any of the many distributions might be, I wouldn't have a clue. I would imagine that most "companies" are interested in turning a profit and as such are trying to sell their idea of what is the best formulation of linux and associated packages and applications. But do we really want one company to tell us what is best for us.

From a distribution point of view, I feel that we benifit from the diversity. True, it can create confusion and incompatability, but competition breeds inovation and improvement.

Lets take your comment regarding standards a step back ward. For years, the "standard" way to use your PC was with "Windows". One reason Linux exists today is because people thought that there was a better way to to use the PC. I think that even people who have never heard of linux and only use windows benefit from the existance of linux because, while it may or may not be hurting Microsoft in the pocketbook, it forces (hopefully) Microsoft to address the short-comings of it's OS.

Quote:
And I find it very saddening that people use "general use" synonymously with "uniform" or "homogeneous" ...
I agree, but my frustration is more with the fact that people seem to come to linux with certain assumptions, preconcieved notions, and expectations. Then, when the facts begin to challenge these notions, rather than change "their" points of view to match reality, they question, complain, or even attack because linux isn't what they thought it was. Clearly linux isn't for everyone, but for those who stick with it and struggle to learn it, an understanding and appreciation developes for how and why things are done the way they are. As a result, a sense of frustration developes with those who, after just a short time with linux, presume to tell everyone what is wrong with it. It's kind of like someone coming in to your house for the first time and telling you that you have your furniture arranged all wrong.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 07:47 AM   #144
Windows Runaway
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
You're ALMOST getting it right mate

Linux is a swiss-army knife, a tool-box, a
leatherman ... it's not a pillow, a cushion,
a couch ... one distro might cover it with
pink fluff and replace the screw-driver on
the leatherman with a remote control (eeew,
Mandrake!), one might replace a bunch of
serious tools from the box with a few fancy,
multicoloured gadgets, and make the box too
heavy to carry (eeek, RedHat!), others might
ship a plain leatherman without a padded
holster (Slackware! ) ...

None of them, however, mean to be a couch
with a TV set in front... and Linux is not about
"How to be a better Windows?" ... it's about
"Linux is good for what it's good at!" :}

Cheers,
Tink
sorry i'm not sure i understand what your getting at with this analagy, and all i'm saying is that shouldn't be complaining that linu7x is hard to install and doesn't have the features we want as these belong to the distrobustion and the GUI not the OS, to uses my own analagy that compaining about the engine of a car because the gear stick looks ugly and is not easy to use, and we should stop moning about the engine and complain about the gear stick
 
Old 05-01-2003, 08:47 AM   #145
Looking_Lost
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Most of my comments to be honest are based on the assumption that
the Red Hat's and others of the world want to compete with Microsoft in some shape or form. I guess it's all one to me if Linux remains a "hobbyist's" niche operating system.

I bet you Linus Torvald ain't short of a few bucks or two.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 10:17 AM   #146
KDE4me
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Linux is only difficult for the general population because people are used to Windows. The argument of making linux easier to use for Windows users is a flawed. It's called a fallacy of ad ignoratum where because you are used to something you say everything should be like that because you have no outside perspective. People HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH TIME and resources in Windows that its VERY DIFFICULT to get an unbiassed opinion about what's wrong with Windows and what's wrong with Linux. Everything's wrong with Linux because it's not easy but conversely everythings wrong with windows because you have no/or very few options. eg. unzip -OPTIONS look at all the options I have(LINUX), in windows it's like dblclick chose dir...unzipping... little control. I'm not saying I need this control for such a simple operation but I HAVE THE CHOICE.

Now I am a newbie to linux, sure I've had it for about 7 months (it hasn't worked for 3 because I was too lazy to get the upgrade BUT THIS WAS BECAUSE I WAS TOO LAZY) and a heap of things don't work as well as I like but I see the power of linux over windows. ALL LINUX NEEDS to be a half-decent OS is an internet connection. I've got that now and I am going to mothball my MS drive!

Let me say those options really suck, there should be an option:

I'm a newbie and I'm happy the way linux is, I know all I have to do is to is get off my ass an spend a heap of time on it. I like the options of Redhat installation where I HAVE THE POWER TO CHOOSE WHAT I WANT ON MY OS. Not like windows where I get no say, a useless calculator and a bunch of other rubbish.

So subsequently I abstained from voting because I CANNOT claim that I am an expert(I don't know how many people would have the audacity to claim such) but I don't want to regress back to having little or no choice with my OS.

There is a satisfying feeling to getting something to work (see post #138) and using linux is like writing a program. I'll curse it when I get 50 errors but when it runs it's the best feeling in the world. I want the excitement from learning!

I tell you if in the forseeable future linux takes these options away from me and it becomes like Windows, pffft I'll just go back to Windows. Where's the benefit of running Linux then? Absolutely none! Free software? Woohoo, whatever. There's a whole heap of free software or trial etc. for windows. Sure point and click/dblclk is easier, BUT WHAT DO I LEARN?

Like on windows to me everything was just "dumped" in c: no concern for where stuff is. Is it on C:? Yeah. She's a beaute then. Ya' little rippa! With linux it's logical. Is it system wide? okay /usr/local/bin. is it for only this user then its in ~/bin or usr/bin (I think) where ever. I like the idea of mounting stuff it makes sense

People who use Windows generally don't have as a top concern what they run on their box. There are better things to life than worrying about something that abstractly run on something which they have never even opened the casing up of.

I want linux for the source code, power, knowledge and choice AND I AM PREPARED(EMPHASIS) TO WORK AT IT. All I need is a little help, a goddamn lot of books, a whopping amount of patience and a heap of guessing(trial and error). Ultimately IT'S MY FAULT if I trash my drive NOT THE OS for being TOO DIFFICULT. It's due to MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

I'm a proselyte to LINUX and I love it! I'm fleeing from the dictator in my weak and huddled masses[sorry Lady Liberty!]

It seems to me the people who advocate for Linux to become more like Windoze are armchair generals. Stuff is easy enough nowadays for nearly anyone to use it in Linux, you just need to work and sure moonlighting for linux doesn't sound like much fun but that is only because they haven't tried or OS choice isn't a great concen of theirs.

ALL IN ALL I DON'T CARE IF LINUX BECOMES MORE USER FRIENDLY, JUST DON'T SCREW IT UP THE WAY IT IS! If it's point and click... fine, but if stuff goes wrong I want to know what is wrong or I'll install it differently. With windows if it don't install, it don't install. There is a reason for everything, now I'm not sure what's the benefit in installing from binaries over double clicking an .exe but I'm sure I'll find out after I spend enough time on LINUX. Besides if you want to make it easier just use rpms. It's a shame all the Linux Labs at my Univeristy are nearly empty and the 'Doze labs have people waiting around in their numbers but simply they could care less about linux and if it has double click facilities(THIS IS IN THE FACULTY OF COMPUTER SCIENCE!) why should people in other faculties care? They like the status quo MS and they aren't prepared to change! Linux should advance sure, but what is advancement? Simplifying things? Depends on your perspective. There are PRO's and CON's to everything.

Making Linux simple is like making a programming lanuage simple. If you make it simple(java/VB) it might do less than other lanuages(c/c++). There are pros and cons, all I want is not to be locked in like MS where I have no options! Fine make it simple, just don't screw it up forever (surely if there is no good reason for making it simpler it would have been done years ago)
 
Old 05-01-2003, 10:59 AM   #147
Windows Runaway
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i disagree with you on 1 point, you said you don't want linux simplifyed because you'd loose options, what most people here want is the option of doing things in an easier manor we're not talking about reoveing the way things are but adding the option of a easier option, the fact is that until you know how to use the complex methods your not able to do much with the the OS, i can't speak for the rest of the poeple here but i want a easier method of doing stuff so that i can do the stuff while learning hte complex, when your learning to read they don't give you a copy of war and peace, you start with the simple stuff and work your way up that doesn't mean that you cant get a copy of war and peace.or to use your programing laguage analagy, would you be happy if the only laguage avalable was binary, after all you can't get more powerful, what we want to the option of using binary, assembler, C, haskel, Java or (god help us) VB thats all, we don't want the others removing from the market we just want the option to choose something that might be less effective but easier to use


though, reading between the lines of what you say i have to say i generaly agree whole hartedly i don't want linux to follow the windows route, which stopped being a Gui and became the entire OS, where the powerful methods are taken away from the user infavour of the simple method what i want is a OS that is as easy to uses as i want it to be, not designed like windows where (to continue the above analagy) we are given 'Where's Wally' (i believe thats 'where's Waldo' in the US) and never allowed to move on to a more challaging read

on another point, i personaly believe that, the man pages are brilliant if your unsure of how to use a method, but are incredibly difficult if your trying to find the method in the first place, which is synonomus to a majority of the problems people claim to be having if you've got a fairly good idea of what your doing its relitivly easy to figure out how to do it, but difficult in the extreme for the clueless to get a clue, in your example you mention that rpm is a much easilier method of preforming installs but if you weren't aware the mothod was avalable it isn't easy to find out about it on your own, which is why i treasure these types of forums

Quote:
Originally posted by KDE4me
Linux is only difficult for the general population because people are used to Windows. The argument of making linux easier to use for Windows users is a flawed. It's called a fallacy of ad ignoratum where because you are used to something you say everything should be like that because you have no outside perspective. People HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH TIME and resources in Windows that its VERY DIFFICULT to get an unbiassed opinion about what's wrong with Windows and what's wrong with Linux. Everything's wrong with Linux because it's not easy but conversely everythings wrong with windows because you have no/or very few options. eg. unzip -OPTIONS look at all the options I have(LINUX), in windows it's like dblclick chose dir...unzipping... little control. I'm not saying I need this control for such a simple operation but I HAVE THE CHOICE.

Now I am a newbie to linux, sure I've had it for about 7 months (it hasn't worked for 3 because I was too lazy to get the upgrade BUT THIS WAS BECAUSE I WAS TOO LAZY) and a heap of things don't work as well as I like but I see the power of linux over windows. ALL LINUX NEEDS to be a half-decent OS is an internet connection. I've got that now and I am going to mothball my MS drive!

Let me say those options really suck, there should be an option:

I'm a newbie and I'm happy the way linux is, I know all I have to do is to is get off my ass an spend a heap of time on it. I like the options of Redhat installation where I HAVE THE POWER TO CHOOSE WHAT I WANT ON MY OS. Not like windows where I get no say, a useless calculator and a bunch of other rubbish.

So subsequently I abstained from voting because I CANNOT claim that I am an expert(I don't know how many people would have the audacity to claim such) but I don't want to regress back to having little or no choice with my OS.

There is a satisfying feeling to getting something to work (see post #138) and using linux is like writing a program. I'll curse it when I get 50 errors but when it runs it's the best feeling in the world. I want the excitement from learning!

I tell you if in the forseeable future linux takes these options away from me and it becomes like Windows, pffft I'll just go back to Windows. Where's the benefit of running Linux then? Absolutely none! Free software? Woohoo, whatever. There's a whole heap of free software or trial etc. for windows. Sure point and click/dblclk is easier, BUT WHAT DO I LEARN?

Like on windows to me everything was just "dumped" in c: no concern for where stuff is. Is it on C:? Yeah. She's a beaute then. Ya' little rippa! With linux it's logical. Is it system wide? okay /usr/local/bin. is it for only this user then its in ~/bin or usr/bin (I think) where ever. I like the idea of mounting stuff it makes sense

People who use Windows generally don't have as a top concern what they run on their box. There are better things to life than worrying about something that abstractly run on something which they have never even opened the casing up of.

I want linux for the source code, power, knowledge and choice AND I AM PREPARED(EMPHASIS) TO WORK AT IT. All I need is a little help, a goddamn lot of books, a whopping amount of patience and a heap of guessing(trial and error). Ultimately IT'S MY FAULT if I trash my drive NOT THE OS for being TOO DIFFICULT. It's due to MY LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

I'm a proselyte to LINUX and I love it! I'm fleeing from the dictator in my weak and huddled masses[sorry Lady Liberty!]

It seems to me the people who advocate for Linux to become more like Windoze are armchair generals. Stuff is easy enough nowadays for nearly anyone to use it in Linux, you just need to work and sure moonlighting for linux doesn't sound like much fun but that is only because they haven't tried or OS choice isn't a great concen of theirs.

ALL IN ALL I DON'T CARE IF LINUX BECOMES MORE USER FRIENDLY, JUST DON'T SCREW IT UP THE WAY IT IS! If it's point and click... fine, but if stuff goes wrong I want to know what is wrong or I'll install it differently. With windows if it don't install, it don't install. There is a reason for everything, now I'm not sure what's the benefit in installing from binaries over double clicking an .exe but I'm sure I'll find out after I spend enough time on LINUX. Besides if you want to make it easier just use rpms. It's a shame all the Linux Labs at my Univeristy are nearly empty and the 'Doze labs have people waiting around in their numbers but simply they could care less about linux and if it has double click facilities(THIS IS IN THE FACULTY OF COMPUTER SCIENCE!) why should people in other faculties care? They like the status quo MS and they aren't prepared to change! Linux should advance sure, but what is advancement? Simplifying things? Depends on your perspective. There are PRO's and CON's to everything.

Making Linux simple is like making a programming lanuage simple. If you make it simple(java/VB) it might do less than other lanuages(c/c++). There are pros and cons, all I want is not to be locked in like MS where I have no options! Fine make it simple, just don't screw it up forever (surely if there is no good reason for making it simpler it would have been done years ago)

Last edited by Windows Runaway; 05-02-2003 at 05:05 AM.
 
Old 05-01-2003, 03:08 PM   #148
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Windows Runaway
my own analagy that compaining about the engine of a car because the gear stick looks ugly and is not easy to use, and we should stop moning about the engine and complain about the gear stick
Fine, let's tackle it from your analogy then: :D

When you move from Leicester (UK?) to
Paris you'll have to get used to using (in the
long run, for road-safety's sake) a car that
has the gearshift on your right hand side
rather than on your left...

The problem with that is not the gearshift,
it's not the car, it's your habits....

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-01-2003, 03:21 PM   #149
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Looking_Lost
Well what about all the big distributors they are most definitley trying to make it big.
The point you're missing here is that these
distributers hardly do any development in
the sense of creating the desktop environments.

They will develop themes/looks for them. They
will craft individual installation utilites.

They don't develop KDE or Gnome.


Quote:
If all the components in your computer worked entirely differently from every other component on everyone else's computer then nothing would work for nobody,
I'm not talking about hardware standards,
even though MS' approach to re-define
PC's and the TCPA-initiative scare me
sh*tless :D

Quote:
what's wrong with extending that idea to a software interface?
You can't compare (even though it's rhetorically
a very clever move ;}) the need for physical
collaboration with the Human-Interface ...
The latter is (as pointed out by me as well
as others) a HABIT.

Quote:
The whole of computing is based on homogenous standards as are most things in life.
Well, if you dive into the depth of the few software
standards out there you'll find that they are either
not about look & feel or -if they are- are being ignored
in the first place. CUA is way older than Windows,
yet Mickysoft chose to make a de-fuckto-standard
(and no, that's not poor spelling :}) of their own.


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-02-2003, 11:44 AM   #150
prophet621
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Like on windows to me everything was just "dumped" in c: no concern for where stuff is. Is it on C:? Yeah. She's a beaute then. Ya' little rippa! With linux it's logical. Is it system wide? okay /usr/local/bin. is it for only this user then its in ~/bin or usr/bin (I think) where ever. I like the idea of mounting stuff it makes sense
Personally I like the way Windows does it. I know exactly where everything is going unless I tell it otherwise. 'Program files' Simple and to the point, tells you exactly whats in the folder.

In Linux, half the software I install is buried where I can't find it without using search. Nothing on the desktop (not that I'm complaining about that, I don't like lots of stuff on the desktop) nothing in the program menu (start), hmm, nothing in any /bin folders, nope I'm on the great scavanger hunt.

I would like to see some things about Linux get easier but not at the risk of handicapping the OS. Linux is great with choice, I would like to see an easier choice. Personally I would like to see different software installation. I HATE RPMs and archaic source, .debs are moderatley better in my opinion. I'm comfortable text editing Samba now and lilo.conf..etc. Though many people aren't, should they have to learn all of this to use what they keep being told is a better OS? I don't think they should. Flame away if you want, but I love the double click .exe. What's wrong with Linux having something simular? Too much like Windows? Trying to make it like Windows? What an imagination some Linux users have. Have some serious rationalizations going on in an meger attemp to protect their image of their 'niche' OS.

I have heard on numerous occasions "If you don't want to learn how your OS or computer works than go back to Windows" or somthing simular, then they will turn around and begin to insult the newbie, Windows and start raving about how much better Linux is. This is among the dumbest of things I've ever heard.

We keep telling everyone how great Linux is, Finally we have some distros that are going to try to show the previously unrealistic group of computer users just how great it can be. Now if we can just get some game support and a few key apps.
 
  


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