Additional to some other related threads I want to raise this topic about different allocation methods for Linux space.

We all know the recommended path to install Linux, namely to create several partitions dedicated to Linux, like swap, root, usr and so on. This path is one with obstacles for many people, in particular those who come new to Linux.

I want to point out the ability of Linux to deal with a variety of file system formats. So it also can perfectly deal with sorts of MSDOS file systems. Is it not a much easier way for the newcomer to install Linux on an already exsiting file system? Technically this is possible. ZipSlack gives an example of a slim Linux residing in a FAT file system (umsdos). In principle any file system may go.

I wonder why people keep insisting on the partition solution when something else is more easy to handle! So feel free to comment. Here are a few questions:

- Are there technical advantages of a partiton swap over a file swap / FAT swap?
- Do some full Linux distributions (e.g. Slackeware) offer the opportunity to install themselves into alien fs systems (e.g. existing FAT)?
- If not, should it not be done?

A partition swap, required in most distros, is more efficient. It prevents accidently overwriting files and helps remove fragmentation issues. (How often do you have to defrag a fat32 partition under windows?)

ext3 offers advantages over vfat - usually the efficiency of program storage. (note that XP does not use fat32 - partly for this reason.)

No full system will install into vfat. Though trial systems may.

No, it shouldn't be done. The only reason for keeping vfat at all is because of the number of ex Win systems still around. eg. mem sticks are formatted with vfat by default.

You need to look at the technical specifications of ext3 vs vfat and ntfs. Google for the whitepapers.

http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/4136/6/
http://www.redhat.com/support/wpapers/redhat/ext3/
http://www.computerhope.com/fat32.htm

Hmmm ... it should be pointed out that the repartitioning of drives is actually very simple - and users not wishing to shove windows over, simply buy a second drive for linux, avoiding the issue all together.

Major distros ship with a tool for resizing fat32 partitions... RH ships with fips for eg. These things are well documented.

Traditionally the main barrier to trying linux is the desire to keep all that expensive MS stuff ... just in case. Otherwise a clean install would be the way to go.

The actual linux partitions are usually created automatically by installation software like anaconda.

The next barrier is usually the one of installation itself. As linux pushes the 10% marketshare mark, we will see more and more preinstalled linux boxes coming on the market. Probably from small retailers.

The installations requires what most seem to consider "technical knowledge". This will not change just because the file system changes.

The last major barrier is the learning curve - mostly due to the difficulty humans have in shifting paradigms. I remember a user saying they won't shift to linux because linux dosn't support directX ... but why would he want it to? Because that's what he's used to. I also remember a poster to these forums lamenting that he cannot make industry grade master CD's in linux, so he has to use windows for that. Keeping lots of .wav files in the hdd used up so much space he remove linux to get more. But his problem was that he was demanding proprietary windows formats when there are as-good if not better open source formats available. Similarily with those that lament the gif support when png should be used.

But even simple stuff like the permissions structure can be a hiccough. Or having to mount the fs on fdd when a floppy in inserted - I remember my exclaim "You mean I have to mount the floppy yourself?" ... after a while you start to see advantages to the discipline of working to linux structures and permissions.

It's a withdrawal process all right - you ache for those things that went so easily in windows, but your productivity goes up so much you end up not caring. However: ever tried to go cold turkey over anything? It's hard to get a junky to give up their drugs.

I think that anyone who cannot partition their own HDD is going to have so much trouble with the normal structure of linux that it is probably a waste of time them installing in the first place.

I don't think the partitioning part of setup is actually all that of a barrier to newcomers.

Have you ever gotten that "windows virtual memory too low" message? If there's someone here that's smarter than me, (most likely there is) tell me if I'm right. This is a result of windows having the "swap" on the same partition as the OS. ?

It would be nice to say this to other people with confidence.

sincerely,

slackwarebilly

slackwarebilly: This is my understanding too. Same with all that fragmentation. And you are correct to suggest this is another reason to keep a partioning scheme.

It's good to have these sorts of questions occasionally. Though the standard schemes exist for good reasons, few people know what they are. And it's better to keep questioning ideas, no matter how good they are, so we don't end up ... well... like Microsoft I guess.

Well, yes, it is. At leat it was for me. One of the first scary things I came across was how to partition my HDD and I'd installed a couple hundred WinBlows systems already. I never really got that question before. So, how do I do it? Wellllll, there really was no answer when I started out, just guidelines that were flexible. Quite a daunting task for me. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

That depends on when you started out - my install disks of RH9 included FIPS and specific instructions on how to use it to carve up fat partitions. Also instructions on where to get and how much to pay for Partition Magic and instructions for that.

Even earlier - I set up my own DOS4 machine, and I used multiple partitions there from instructions in the DOS user manual. All it really required was a willingness to read and a can-do attitude.

I think the main scareyness is that you are always told not to mess with the file system ... you get scared for your precious [smeagol-voiceover]preaashhhus[/smeagol-voiceover] and costly software.

So it really depends on your outlook. I've met people who are terrified of anything remotely computery or whose mind goes blank at having to read any documet without cartoons in it. OTOH: I've introduced a 90yr old (sweet old ladey - could have been a Disney archetype) to Red Hat and she was installing to other systems inside the same week ...

cfdisk rocks. Infact, I think it is so user friendly I'm going to write a newbies guide to cfdisk (ok, it does need a guide but it also needs exposure). I think that is the main issue, either the lack of documentation or people's laziness(to read the howtos) or fear(to actually go ahead)

The biggest barrier to any newbie in any field, (tech or non tech) is the attitude. Like the 90 year old- she had a good attitude and therefore succeeded. Bad attitude = bad experience.

titanium_geek

Yes, you're right. partitioning, when you don't even know of such things as hard drives existing in a computer (yes, that was my knowledge level in computers..)
is really not easy at all. As titanium_geek said,it is also a question of attitude.
It is a scary thing to see that you totally borked your computer out of sheer ignorance and just come up with lots of '9999999...' all over the screen, due to a bad
install of LILO..
I hated Linux as much as I love it now !!

cheers