No, sir, the condition of my computers IS the point! I have been told how damaging the things I have been doing is to my machines. They still run! Clearly, there is a disconnect between what you say is going to happen, versus what has happened.

And yes, I am going to defend myself, and my ideas. If they are so wrong, why is my stuff working right? Huh? That is the point, sir, whether you like it or not.

Also, warning is one thing, getting personal is another. I'm not saying that *you* personally attacked me, but I have been attacked at this site more than once. I can't be wrong all that much. If I were, I would be installing operating systems on a daily basis...which I am not.

While it is true that I am currently in the process of setting up a new Debian-based print server to replace my poor, digitally deceased Debby-Anne. I am doing so because the hard drive from the machine that died was too small. Oh yeah, it was one too many hard drives, too.

I digress...

The point is, there is no earthly reason for flaming someone to correct them. If you want me to consider some amount of validity to your supposed concern for (and knowledge of) the Slackware machines of the world, maybe you might want to think about how you come across...you and others, that is. As the old saying goes, you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

You also missed another point. A computer is a complex union of hardware and software. One bad solder joint is enough to bring it crashing down in smoke, no matter how correct the software install may be. There is no software package that can fix busted hardware. There are many things that can spell the doom of a computer; a cat with a tummy ache, coca-cola, a three foot drop...it boggles the mind.

When I am told that something is supposed to be completely destroying my computer, and I am still typing away on the same machine for which all manner of doom was predicted, I think that says more about my ability to think outside the box than it does about the correctness of the predictions, don't you?

Take this system, for instance. The first thing I did once I got it all together was to download the latest kernel, completely remove the headers package that comes on the install disk, and install from the new kernel source.

That was about June of this year. After the setup and kernel configuration, I compiled everything else, up to and including smb4k. The system works. I am using it even now. All those supposedly bad executables executing away as if they didn't even notice I had done anything.

AND to add just a bit more, "m'kay" to the mix, let me add that I decided to see what would happen if I reinstalled the original headers package from the install disk. Now I know you're thinking that would be the time that my computer would fall to pieces. I sure was!

Shucks and gee whiz...still no trouble. If there was, I was asleep at the time. If there was ever a time for things to start cratering on my systems, wouldn't it be now?

So, why thrash me just because my findings don't fit into the standard world view? If any of my computers had succumbed to my playing with the headers, surely I would be backing the standard world view. I'd be there warning along with the rest of you folks. I may be crazy, but I know which side of the bread has the butter.

I read a lot about concern for the noobs, and I respect that. However, what shows more lack of concern for noobs, people who aren't towing the party line, or people who thrash those who don't follow said party line? When I walk into a firestorm, I usually walk back out. So, you flame me, I defend myself, people get turned off, the message is lost.

Luck? Luck means the results can't be repeated with predictability. It's amazing that I have done so many wrong things, and yet I have less problems with my machines than other tales of woe I read here. I'd think if I was doing such terrible things to my computers, they'd be letting me know.

The thing that blows my mind about the situation here is that I get flamed more here than I do at OpEdNews, when I am writing about really controversial and important issues, like politics and religion. I get flamed more here ferociously, as well. I just don't get that. I thought political debaters were evil to the core. They got nothing on some of you critters!

Blessed be!
Pappy

I think you got everything wrong. You can go and remove kernel headers and your system will work. Kernel headers are used when compiling stuff. During compilation cpp sanity check is performed and it fails if it doesn't find kernel headers. Functions are declared in the headers and replacing those might also break sanity check.

Pappy, I have a feeling that it is important to you to have control over your computer the way you like it to, and that is totally okay. My impression was that you got not "trashed" because you decided to do the things like you do on YOUR machines. That is fine how it is and how you do. You are root (literally) and you may do this

But a newbie surely does not have your experience to handle a potential system breakage the way you could do it. As long as they don't know how to handle their Slackware system and to take control of it again I think it is safer for them to go the "usual way to do things". It might work, but there's also a chance that it will break their system to install the new kernel's headers. All your positive experience with that way does not prove that it's potentially "dangerous" to a Linux system. If you always walk straight over a country highway without looking right or left it seems to be not dangerous, your chance of getting over there is quite high -- but you would be wrong to say it's not dangerous at all

This is my last word on this issue.

Whether or not my information is "correct", or better to say follows the accepted norm, it is not given with the intent of causing harm to anyone: noob, old-timer that can admit he/she doesn't know all there is to know, or those in between.

The way that I have been attacked for talking about things that have made my system work is simply ridiculous. This is supposed to be a place for people to get help, and maybe for the more intrepid souls among us to boast and swagger about their deeds in the world of Linux. Incorrect information can be fixed with gentler hands...and there is no need for rudeness.

I have tried to be mellow about the situation. However, it's really getting under my skin. I have had my knowledge and ability impugned, as well as had my systems criticized in a manner I can only classify as completely juvenile. All this for simply posting information that doesn't jibe with the popular notion of what is or isn't workable, or "right".

I could understand people getting all over me for some of my opinions when I am discussing politics, religion, or other controversial subjects. Hell, that's supposed to happen. But to have my intellect called into question because of what I do to my systems is really over the top, gratuitous, and unnecessary. This is even truer when one considers that most of the executables I have compiled on this system (and there are many) continue to work just fine, in spite of the dire predictions of all and sundry, AND the numerous header files against which they were compiled.

I don't want to spend my time defending myself against one attack after another. Maybe I'd like to feel like something I know is worthy of inclusion here. I know some of what I have posted here is.

I'm not competing with any of you for jobs. I'm not here cravenly leading people down the merry path. I'm not sitting up at night thinking of how I can make life harder for the Slackware newbie. I'm trying to help in the best way I can. It's my contribution.

So why the need for the attitude? That's all I really want to know. As far as I am concerned, I have done nothing to bring the wrath of some of y'all raining down on my head.

Why can't we all just get along? There is no need to be rude just because you are hiding behind a computer monitor! It's really de classe!

Blessed be!
Pappy

But we can know a lot more than you do. This continued insistance that there is nothing wrong with replacing the kernel-headers package is right up there with insisting that Elvis is still alive, or that the South Will Rise Again. Nothing you can say, or how many times you say it, will change what you were telling people to do from being dead wrong.

You weren't "attacked". You were simply told again, and again, and again, by literally everyone short of Patrick Volkerding (but indirectly including Linus Torvalds courtesy of an LKML posting) that what you were saying was incorrect, and every little argument you threw out supporting your view was patiently and carefully demolished.

...and since you're now attempting to throw out a red herring, I'll clarify exactly why you were being argued against. It wasn't because you were "talking about things that have made [your] system work". You were telling other people to do things which are entirely incorrect and would damage the integrity of their build environment. There's a huge difference between these two things, and no red herring or argumentum ad nauseum tactics are going to change that.

You are however, doing a great deal to piss a lot of us off with this continued whining about it tho. It's one thing to have to answer the same question over and over to a thousand loons who couldn't use Google if you put a gun to their head. It's entirely another to have to essentially keep answering the same question over and over to one lone guy who absolutely refuses to see reason. You're lucky everyone's been as civil as they have been, because at this point I half suspect you're just doing this to troll up a flame war.

Dude, this isn't philosophy or economics. This is computer science and there's right answers, and there's wrong answers, and your answers were wrong answers. Get over it. This is not some "popular notion" because this is not a liberal art, or sewing circle, or seminar on milking goats. You were dead wrong. The guy who wrote the kernel agrees with us and not you, dig?

Your intellect is not being questioned because of how you maintain your systems. Your intellect is being called into question because you're under the impression that if you continue to say this same broken thing over and over again, that it will magically become correct. For that matter, it's not your intellect I question, it's your sanity.

...then see a professional about managing your paranoia. It's not an "attack" when we say "What you are saying is wrong." every time you say it--it's called "bogon dampening". We don't want to have to help others clean up the messes that will eventually result from taking your bad advice, and they don't want to have those messes to begin with. So... every time you spew bogons, we have to do something to stop them.

When you're telling people to replace the kernel headers when they upgrade their kernel, then you are "leading people down the merry path".

Yes, you have. You've been wasting a huge amount of people's time by posting this horribly incorrect thing, and then continuing to insist that it's correct, despite all evidence and reason to the contrary presented to you in great detail by people who do qualify as experts and gurus. Let's get something straight here, man. A lot of us owe what we have today and our careers to Linux. We're not just an electronic version of some voices in your head or random street people. We actually are experts at Linux, specifically. It's not something we picked up as we went along, it's something we've hitched our wagon to, spent thousands of hours a year studying and honing, and focused on as our particular field of expertise. When there's heaping piles of us telling you something is not so, then you can be pretty bloody sure it's not so.

...and there's no need to be this thick-headed just because you're hiding behind a computer monitor.

Common, people, you are talking not about kernel headers, but just flaming and spamming the thread. Everyone, just take it easy and relax (whichever way you prefer). Slackers united.

OP probably found the answer. So I suggest for mods to close this thread.

I was wondering when YOU would pop off. I have but one thing to say to you, you abusive [edit]person[/edit]: "edit!"

You have insulted me over and over. I think that perhaps you might want to look into your own need for self-aggrandizement. When you become THE expert, then perhaps I'll pay heed to you. Until that time, you appear to me as a total edit, removed!

Pappy

Pappy_Mcfae: there is no excuse for this. I have edited your post to ensure that it is both work and school safe. OK, we understand that this has worked for your system. But you have argued with contributors to Slackware and have now resorted to this at evilDagmar - again. I would strongly suggest that you leave this thread. You are obviously het up and overwrought and need, clearly, to cool down.

I won't close this thread, at this moment, as it is garnering some very useful advice and opinions and it's always good to see experts hold forth on this sort of thing. Speaking as someone who has upgraded the headers - and then not been able to work out why my system won't work - it has been useful for me. Probably why I now upgrade the kernel manually

Why did this dead horse have to be resurrected?

George Burns smoked cigars all the time and lived to be 100. Therefore smoking must not _really_ be bad for you like all the doctors and scientists say, right?

As evilDagmar pointed out, unlike religion and politics, there do exist right and wrong answers in computer science.

Brian

Someone choosing to smoke with full knowledge of the possible negative effects is far different from someone dying due to lung or heart disease because they were not informed of the possible health risk and therefore smoked when they might otherwise have quit.

People need to know the facts so they can choose for themselves whether they want to take the risk or not. Pappy's experiences are helpfull in quantifying that risk to some degree. It should be seen as an addendum to a concise description of the accepted "best practice" and not presented as a suitable alternate pathway. Yes, it is very possible to do any number of risky things without experiencing any adverse consequences. 1 in a million might be acceptable risk - unless your the one.

I think much gnashing of teeth here could have been avoided by use of the phrase "YMMV".

YMMV - Your mileage may vary (for those, who, like me, aren't exp in the Internet slang).

I'd have though that pretty well known - however I have used places such as http://acronymfinder.com/ to advantage on occasion.

So, when I was attacked by evildagmar in the thread I started about compiz and what REALLY makes it work, that was ok? He just comes along, thrashes me unnecessarily, and destroys something I did...and I am supposed to be ok with that. Ok.

I had read many people giving bad advice on setting up the version of compiz that comes with Slack-12, and I wanted to get the right information. I can't be afforded that luxury, but I can be stomped on when I give the "wrong" advice. Ok.

Then, I asked if you could kill that thread so I could restart it, and so far, I have heard nothing from you.

And now I'm an SOB.

Fine. Whatever.

Blessed be!
Pappy

Nothing you did has been destroyed. You have stated many times that it has worked for you and i assume that your system is still up. I, and the rest of the mods, have no issue at all with disagreements and arguing in threads - as long as it is useful. Your attack on evilDagmar was way over the top and was edited for that very reason.

Anyway, this issue is now closed. The thread needs to get back on topic.

Except you're lying about this as well.

You were asked to explain the function of a variable that you were telling people to set which can seriously impact performance. Only this, out of about eight things you were telling people to set with no explanation whatsoever as to what these new settings would do so that users could judge for themselves whether or not they actually needed to set these things or if doing so would be a regression.

You responded as if I tried to dig up your deceased great-grandmother to take along on a necrophiliac holiday--much like you're doing now. Stop wasting people's time.

By the way, should I actually begin to heap the gratuitous abuse on you that you claim I've been doing, there won't be anything subtle about it.