Linux for cellphones?

Edit: oops, just noticed that the suggestion of /e/ was already made.

Originally Posted by OriginalSlim I'm looking for a phone that doesn't have a bunch of crap and data mining included Opinions or advice?

I suggest /e/. It's a de-googled phone (meaning, it's Android but with most of Google's crap and data mining stuff removed). https://e.foundation/

^ stress on most, not all.

Anyhow, I don't think /e/ is available for the 2 devices mentioned in this thread.

I also suspect that OP and enorbet are actually thinking of a GNU/Linux operating system(*) when they say "Linux phone".
Because Android already uses the Linux kernel.

As pointed out by Mill J, SailfishOS(*) currently seems to be the most viable option, if you have a suitable device.
I'm not fanboying Sailfish, it is far from perfect, both ethically & technically, and probably not even the "best" option, but they've been doing this for a decade already...

(*) I cannot stress this enough.
SSH into your phone and be in full control of everything.
Run all your (non-GUI) scripts straight away (and GUI frontends exist for that).
Lot of CLI utilities already compiled for the CPU architecture, as well as some GUI programs.
Etc., etc...

Thank you very much Mill J. That's exactly the sort of feedback I'd like. I have gotten the impression things are changing for the better fast and it's great to get some confirmation that impression is deserved.

The January 15 date came from a blog update linked on the Pine64 website.

Another impression is that Postmarket OS is currently the leader. I'll likely start with it.

Your feedback on battery life is most welcome. That length of time suits me just fine. I have a Vonage account that I like very much for handling voice calls. Cell phone needs are just texting and the more obvious of how many applications, signups, etc require a mobile number. It is probably likely my use case will grow with the Pine64 but I go out so little battery life will never be an issue.

Originally Posted by enorbet The January 15 date came from a blog update linked on the Pine64 website.

Very likely you were reading the November 2019 blog. The Manjaro Edition is being received by end users already. And being as they are still in stock as of now, you could likely have one fairly promptly. I got mine 4 days after it shipped but it shipped about a month after I order(I ordered early )

Another impression is that Postmarket OS is currently the leader. I'll likely start with it.

Let's get something out of the way here. There is no leader. Most projects are "ahead" one time or another, sometimes that last mere hours. PMOS is probably the fastest booting but I dont think they have Crust implemented on suspend yet (any day now) which means on my device I get about 6-8 max of standby time. However that said, Most distros are using Megi's kernels and patches so on the kernel level they are basically same.

Your feedback on battery life is most welcome. That length of time suits me just fine. I have a Vonage account that I like very much for handling voice calls. Cell phone needs are just texting and the more obvious of how many applications, signups, etc require a mobile number. It is probably likely my use case will grow with the Pine64 but I go out so little battery life will never be an issue.

Like I said I haven't tested the cellular features much since the sim I had originally worked only in town and I way always to busy to tinker when I was there. Hopefully when winter sets in I'll be able to get that working.

Some advice. Get one. Compared to most phones, it's lousy. But the more tech savy people end up with it, the faster it will become usable. I don't know if you use live chats but there is a pinephone chat bridged between telegram, matrix, discord, and irc. Very helpful for keeping up to date with the devs and newbies and everything in between. I use telegram so it works out of the box on Mobian


I wonder why there is no Slarmobile (Slackware Arm) project yet

I wonder about Slarmobile too but suspect all focus is on 15 release right now. I figure I can always change which is yet another cool thing about the Pine - battery pops out and so does the drive.

I think I will "pull the trigger" and order one this week. My needs are beyond minimal thanks to staying at home and Vonage. I'd likely be pleased if it would just do decent SMS. Voice calls would be a plus but not quite a deal breaker. It probably pays to get started now as at some point it will get so good that with stuff like KDEConnect and docks to connect to keyboard, mouse, and full size monitor I can offload a fair bit from my PC and pare down to just do optimized Gaming and DAW work on it.

Thanks again Mill J.

Originally Posted by enorbet I figure I can always change which is yet another cool thing about the Pine - battery pops out and so does the drive.

The removable battery is really nice. Not sure what you mean by removable drive. The internal emmc is soldered to the board and not easily replaceable, however the ability to boot off a regular micro sd is just plain awesome. No need to wear out the emmc by constantly flashing it. And now with p-boot we can do more than dual boot https://xnux.eu/p-boot-demo/, this is good way to get an initial feel for the many options available without frying an sd with too many writes.

Yeah battery "pops out" was literal, drive was figurative

BTW how important or even real is concern over SSD writes? These days SSDs often have 5 year warranty. Sure, there are cheapies that are crappy, always will be I suppose, but even high end SSDs have come WAY down. I bought a Samsung EVO 1TB SSD 3 months ago at ~$240 and yesterday I see it at under 150. Technology always trickles down, unlike "the wealth"

Originally Posted by enorbet BTW how important or even real is concern over SSD writes? These days SSDs often have 5 year warranty. Sure, there are cheapies that are crappy, always will be I suppose, but even high end SSDs have come WAY down. I bought a Samsung EVO 1TB SSD 3 months ago at ~$240 and yesterday I see it at under 150. Technology always trickles down, unlike "the wealth"

USB flash, SDcards, and emmc are also much more affordable then when I started not long ago.

Usually if you avoid constantly flashing the entire drive (dd, etc) they will last much longer. And certain filesystems are much more suited for SSDs. I would say software is probably the biggest factor. There are some filesystems that only write when data isn't same, this saves a ton of writes.

Another neat feature of some sdcards such as the Samsung evo is that when a certain amount of sectors go bad they switch to permanent read-only mode, allowing you to recover easily.

Originally Posted by OriginalSlim I don't see a forum dedicated to Linux for phones.I had a fellow mention to me that he could install Linux on my phone,but I decided at that time to wait a bit before doing anything.Since then I have tried to contact him to no avail. I understand that there are some phones slowly making their way into the market,but my trust level is now at minimum.I read that Iphones will have Covid tracking software included in upcoming updates.That troubles me to be honest,and I'm looking for a phone that doesn't have a bunch of crap and data mining included,so I thought a Linux OS on a phone would be just the ticket.(assuming I could find someone trustworthy to do the install). Opinions or advice?

Sadly not, but not for lack of trying. Rather one of the main issues is the way phones are constructed to prevent competition and any installation of anything custom. Ubuntu, Sailfish and others have tried, with high quality, but lack of success to penetrate the market. Others have to, Firefox for example, and some smaller players. The Jolla project seems to be dead or dying, it's where Sailfish comes from. They aimed to make a product, and they did, and it was quite good, but not good enough, and probably not what "non-normies" wanted. Ubuntu had an OS for mobiles, which they made alot of effort with, but ultimately it was never really compatible with much of the hardware out there, and it never could be, because those devices are locked down and allow no room for freedom. So they ultimately went the way of trying to make their own phone, but that failed as well, because they did not accomplish the funding they wanted. It was pretty close, and it would have been an interesting device.

Linux on phones died with Nokia, and might have been the reason Nokia was assassinated. GNU/Linux was not yet on the market, but Linux/Busybox based phones were, and they were good, powerful devices, empowering. I can only imagine what they would have been with GNU/Linux, and that is where it was heading.

But then came the flat and useless portrait mode phones with keyboard on the screen, not only making them useless, but cluttering up half the screen, Nokia followed this "defect by design" format with the Nokia N9, which was not good at all, despite being perhaps the only commercial phone sold in the global market with GNU/Linux on it. They should have made the N950 instead obviously.

Anyways, since then, others that have tried and are trying to make Linux phones are following this same defect design pattern. But nonetheless a GNU/Linux phone would ofcourse be better than a tyrant company X phone, but it would not solve the design issue. If you don't believe me, start watching movies in portrait mode and buy a PC that you must hold with both hands (lest it fall), and type of the screen with a keyboard that clutters up the screen. Yes, it makes the device useless, and that's why "smart phones" are only used for useless things, and that's by design (is what I speculate).

The takedown/collapse of Nokia came at the same time (on the same timeline) as the expansion of mass surveillance, increased global "intelligence" lawlessness. Having a non-compliant and independent Finish maker of GNU/Linux phones that empower the consumer would have been a disaster for that type of system I am talking about, so, instead we got Google and Apple phones, made in the heart of NSA territory.

But yes, some efforts are made to make Linux phone. There is an "alpha build" called Librem 5. But it is hardly a usable product. Then there is the pinephone, but it's the same design defect, but might or might not be an alternative to people who just want a "smart phone" without Apple or Google. It's hardly a product for power users, or people who actually want to use it for production or useful purposes rather than looking at instagram photos or click like on Facebook posts.

So yeah, the prospects are bad, and there are no real GNU/Linux phones out there. Some noble efforts are taking place, but these generally lead nowhere, because the whole mobile industry is a closed sector, only viable for the existing players, with no place for any competition, and lots of patents and legal ways to take down anyone who challenges the hegemony.

Originally Posted by zeebra But yes, some efforts are made to make Linux phone. There is an "alpha build" called Librem 5. But it is hardly a usable product. Then there is the pinephone, but it's the same design defect, but might or might not be an alternative to people who just want a "smart phone" without Apple or Google. It's hardly a product for power users, or people who actually want to use it for production or useful purposes rather than looking at instagram photos or click like on Facebook posts. So yeah, the prospects are bad, and there are no real GNU/Linux phones out there. Some noble efforts are taking place, but these generally lead nowhere, because the whole mobile industry is a closed sector, only viable for the existing players, with no place for any competition, and lots of patents and legal ways to take down anyone who challenges the hegemony.

I'd like to know where you get your information. As a Pinephone owner I can tell you that a real GNU/Linux phone exists. It runs mainline Linux. I'm currently just using mine for app development but there's quite a few people using the Pinephone as daily drivers. Pine64 made a statement that by the end of this year there will be more Pinephones in users hands then all other previous Linux phone projects put together.

2020 had seen such a huge jump in the usability of Linux phones that it's almost hard to grasp.

The main holdup for US users is the current lack of mms. Of course it's just a matter of time. If you want to there are scripts to get mms manually.

In countries where the users phone is also their ID, these phones might never work for them. But that's certainly not the phones fault. It's a situation that is very disturbing to me to say the least.

Originally Posted by Mill J I'd like to know where you get your information. As a Pinephone owner I can tell you that a real GNU/Linux phone exists. It runs mainline Linux. I'm currently just using mine for app development but there's quite a few people using the Pinephone as daily drivers. Pine64 made a statement that by the end of this year there will be more Pinephones in users hands then all other previous Linux phone projects put together. 2020 had seen such a huge jump in the usability of Linux phones that it's almost hard to grasp. The main holdup for US users is the current lack of mms. Of course it's just a matter of time. If you want to there are scripts to get mms manually. In countries where the users phone is also their ID, these phones might never work for them. But that's certainly not the phones fault. It's a situation that is very disturbing to me to say the least.

Get what information? Perhaps I phrased it badly, sorry.. This was about the actual alive GNU/Linux phone projects currently, "so there is some hope", section, but with a big BUT. Pinephone uses the defect "smartphone" design. Not saying it's defect or unusable, but perhaps it could look like I compared it with "alpha build" Librem, but that was not my intention. I was comparing it to defect design "smartphones".

I fully support Pinephone and Librem.. I just hope both move more towards power user design like the Nokia N900/N950 instead of useless designs like Iphone, Android Phones and Nokia N9. The "smart phone" defect by design, "design" is almost as big an issue as the lack of freedom on mobile products in the form of GNU/Linux. It's the 2nd biggest issue, by far, and it's much more important than people know or think.

Originally Posted by zeebra Get what information? Perhaps I phrased it badly, sorry.. This was about the actual alive GNU/Linux phone projects currently, "so there is some hope", section, but with a big BUT. Pinephone uses the defect "smartphone" design. Not saying it's defect or unusable, but perhaps it could look like I compared it with "alpha build" Librem, but that was not my intention. I was comparing it to defect design "smartphones". I fully support Pinephone and Librem.. I just hope both move more towards power user design like the Nokia N900/N950 instead of useless designs like Iphone, Android Phones and Nokia N9. The "smart phone" defect by design, "design" is almost as big an issue as the lack of freedom on mobile products in the form of GNU/Linux. It's the 2nd biggest issue, by far, and it's much more important than people know or think.

Ok I think I get the drift. These phones aren't your personal interpretation of a Linux Phone. So would adding a physical keyboard correct that "useless" design? Pine64 is working on a folding keyboard that replaces the back cover of the Pinephone and uses the pogo pins to transfer data. Devs might have prototypes as early as next month.

Originally Posted by Mill J Ok I think I get the drift. These phones aren't your personal interpretation of a Linux Phone. So would adding a physical keyboard correct that "useless" design? Pine64 is working on a folding keyboard that replaces the back cover of the Pinephone and uses the pogo pins to transfer data. Devs might have prototypes as early as next month.

For a power user yes, a physical keyboard would help. But mostly I'm talking about landscape mode (widescreen), as oppose to the outdated copy of 1990's phones "portrait" mode, re-intepreted in a "modern" device.

My personal interpretation has nothing to do with it. I think Ondoho said it right when he said a "Linux phone" is one with GNU/Linux, the design does not influence that. I was talking about power users, bad design and such things (which ofcourse includes any portrait mode GUI).. If you don't believe me, just turn your computer to the side and rotate the screen, you'll quickly see that it doesn't work. Or start watching "vertical video" on your TV. Most humans have two eyes, we are not "cyclops"

Ps. I don't think I've seen anyone do anything productive on a "smartphone", ever. Not heard much talk about such use either.

Originally Posted by Mill J As a Pinephone owner I can tell you that a real GNU/Linux phone exists. It runs mainline Linux. I'm currently just using mine for app development but there's quite a few people using the Pinephone as daily drivers.

As an actual phone (and for SMS)?