The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by business_kid I don't believe I'm guilty of using the word 'wrong' but I'm sorry to all if I'm coming across as OTT.

I see nothing wrong in using the word 'wrong'. After all, "we disagree" is just a way of saying "I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong".

On the Gospels, yes, there are many books, including the ones you mention, and many opinions on them.

What's not as widely known is that they were not accepted at the time. From about 150CE, folks stasrted writing lists of what they accepted. They ruled out any book teaching apostasy, magnifying any imperfect individual, or obviously falsely attributed. We have much written from the early centuries. They weren't fooled. Why should you be?

The Gospel of Stephen has the obstacle that Stephen was martyred in 34 CE, and the book didn't appear until the second century. Then there's dating by C14, text, style of language, what historical events had/hadn't happened, etc. So accurate 'ball park' date estimates can be made without C14. In the case of the Apocrypha as you find them in the Douay version, most of them were in Greek, whereas they should have been Hebrew.I don't take the pseudoepigraphic texts seriously, and neither should you imho. I will not object to your being skeptical about those.

My key point, @business_kid, is that "we really can't know, one way or the other, about most of these things." A lot of time has passed – and, a lot of politics. This is why I don't choose to share your apparent certainty, about an awful lot of things.

Mind you, I do not attempt to offer "what the answer is," and I also don't assert that "the answer isn't." Instead, I simply say that I don't know – that, as for my own personal opinion, I do not choose to be convinced.

I look at these "canonical" documents as well as a whole lot of other documents – not just for the Judaeo/Christian religion but for other ones too – and I take them "at face value." I don't ascribe to their own claims (as represented in their texts), nor anyone else's. Which basically leaves me entirely devoid of "certainty." But, this doesn't bother me at all. (Nor do your entirely-differing opinions: I have no need to argue with you, nor to "win," and of course, nor do you. I think that I fully recognize that that's not what we're all here for.)

FYI: "False(?)" religious documents, and (separately ...) forgeries," are nothing new. We've found plenty of examples (or so we believe) from "BC." The simple fact of the matter is that religions are a very potent tool of the state. They are – and always have been – "joined at the hip." You cannot regard any "religion" purely on its own self-set terms: the political dynamic must always be considered.

No, "politics" is never within a religion's own dynamic – except to the extent that its tenets speak for or against it – but the two human concerns are always co-joined and thus cannot be separated. Hundreds of years of European history, for instance, were vitally concerned with "Protestant" vs. "Catholic" rulers. The American "Bill of Rights" rule separating church and state was entirely unprecedented – even radical.

If you could promulgate a "religious text" and somehow get it accepted, that was huge. And there have therefore been plenty of attempts to do exactly that! Because, "religion and political power were basically one and the same." If you could get Jesus to say what you wanted Him to say, you wouldn't hesitate to do it.

Now, let me tiptoe onto maybe-dangerous ground ... please do not take me wrong ... I am attacking no one's treasured beliefs ... If you happen to be a Mormon, I mean absolutely nothing, either for you or against you, by my use of the following example ...

Some might say that Joseph Smith was the most-recent case, creating the entire new religion of "Mormonism" through an angel that no one else has ever seen, gold tablets that no one else has ever found, and magic glasses. Here is a brand-new religion that was created "out of whole cloth" in very contemporary times, founded in a contemporary book that its adherents also consider to be "inspired" and therefore "canonical." You'll find a copy of it, alongside the Bible, in the nightstand of every Mariott hotel. Their adherent's belief, no matter what you may make of it, is real. Every bit as real as yours.

(For the Mormons among us: I want to make it perfectly clear that my opening paragraph was not intended to imply by association that The Book of Mormon is a "false religious document." It is simply: "a religious document." And it was first published, so far as I know, in the year 1830. Which definitely makes it "contemporary.")

Agreed, sundialsvcs, politics and most religions are joined at the hip, or want to be. I hope you will except us (JWs) from that, as we strive to be neutral. To mention a few examples where this was tested:

• There were two flag salute cases in the US Supreme Court in the 30s/40s about children saluting the flag. There was great violence against JWs in the US (when we lost the first one) in all States, kids were expelled from school, etc.
• In Nazi Germany, JWs refused to say the 'Heil Hitler' greeting or join in any aspect of the war effort. Women ended in concentration camps, men of conscription age were often executed.
• In the Allied countries (US/UK) men were jailed for refusing to work for the war effort, which is what being neutral means.
• In Malawi in the 1960s, Witnesses were violently driven out of the country because they refused to buy a political party card costing a few ¢.

These are just a few of very many examples. So I hope you don't feel JWs are joined to Governments at the hip.

The very thought that I would even be suggesting nor insinuating any such thing is frankly strange to me . . .

. . . I have never mentioned "JW," nor do I ever intend to do so. To me, "it's irrelevant." "I don't care what flavor you are ..."

. . . remember, I do not "know" you and there is zero that is "personal." Those are the ground rules, after all.

My point really has nothing to do with "politics in time of war," but rather, "the historically-proved interaction between 'politics' and 'religion' in general."

As I've said, in Europe we had "Protestant" and "Catholic" Kings. We had monarchs who were strongly influenced by whether or not the then-reigning Pope would consent to offer them Communion. We had folks like Thomas Becket ... and the ugly reasons how and why they got murdered. Joan of Arc. The lists go on and on and on – and they're usually filled with blood.

Centuries before, Constantine overthrew the "former" religion of the Temple Priests, who at that time exercised enormous political influence, to replace them in whole cloth with a brand-new State Religion that became known as "Christianity." But, in due time, there came "the Reformation." The empire's own split between East and West. Shall I continue?

Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera. "Here we all are."

So – quite apart from "times of war," we inescapably observe that religion and politics cannot be entirely separated from one another. When the two concerns interact, neither one is "pure." You can't look at real-world political history without considering the religious structures of the day, and you can't look at real-world religious history without considering politics. "Neither one is 'pure.'" The reality is an ugly mess – and yet, altogether human.

I don't draw specific conclusions from this – I simply point out that the actual reality is, well, "an ugly human mess!" So, yes, observe your religious books, whatever they might be, but also look outside of them as well to keep an eye on the bigger human picture. All those books are frozen in the time in which they were made – but the total situation is bigger.

... and I readily see, every day, "Deity at work." Yes, I see what these books still do in the hearts of men.

Don't get paranoid. I basically agree with everything you say. I just wanted to clear that we are neutral, in contrast with nearly every religion I know of. Wartime is bad for us, because we get done for sedition too while trying to steer a neutral course. But we make a determined effort not to come under the paint of the broad brush strokes you have in your last post.

Religion had those relationships from way back. The Assyrian religion(s) got 25% of the booty of any war. I believe a Papal blessing for war cost money as well. When you think about, it's paying for a license to kill.

What with so may I see running scared and seemingly afraid to express personal views that others will disarpprove of and mindlessly react to in an increasingly violent manner, it warms my heart to see a civil discussion going on in this thread! In my mind, politics is the culprit for corruption of all kinds, throughout the history of humankind.

I have a faith, but not religion. I have a faith that " . . . the Earth will remain forever." Without it, I would be pitifully hopeless for all of Creation. I want to share something that has bneficial to me, personally, in the hope that it will prove helpful to others. It has a controversial source, but truth, no matter where it may be found, is still Truth --

LET GO AND LET GOD

. . . praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

— TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS, p. 96

When I "Let Go and Let God," I think more clearly and wisely. Without having to think about it, I quickly let go of things that cause me immediate pain and discomfort. 
Because I find it hard to let go of the kind of worrisome thoughts and attitudes that cause me immense anguish, all I need do during those times is allow God, as I 
understand Him, to release them for me, and then and there, I let go of the thoughts, memories and attitudes that are troubling me.

When I receive help from God, as I understand Him, I can live my life one day at a time and handle whatever challenges come my way. Only then can I live a life of 
victory over alcohol, in comfortable sobriety.

From the book Daily Reflections
Copyright © 1990 by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
[BOLD] is mine  –  TorC

Yes, I am a recovered binge drinker, thanks to the God of my understanding. I am grateful for the Power greater than myself that led me out of the insanity of alcoholism.
May all seek It now.
So be it.

I am delighted to hear that He rescued you.

Stories like yours are real, and they happen all the time. Yes, there is somehow much more to religion – there is somehow much more, period – than just human rituals and holy books. And I believe that there is born into each and every one of us an instinctive awareness that this is actually so: something beyond our intellect and our very limited senses.

FYI there are people who recognize that every human is ephemeral and is entirely limited by his/her senses and who also recognizes that mystery exists and even some things we not only don't know but can never know. That doesn't mean we can know nothing nor make progress nor that any "higher power" exists in the form of some divine entity, let alone as creator of the Universe. If you feel that and it gives you strength and solace, that's great. However it is not wise to assume everyone thinks or feels the same. The only "still small voice" in my head are my own verbalized thoughts and memories.

Beautifully stated, @enorbet, and I fully respect that. I, too, am mightily skeptical about a great many things, particularly "religious texts."

However, every now and again I am confronted by something that has no rational-to-me explanation. And, every once in a while, I get in my car to go somewhere ... then – then – I pause, turn off the engine, get out of the car, and don't leave the driveway. Would "anything bad" have actually happened to me had I kept on going? Of course I will never know. But it was enough to stop me from driving at that particular time and place.

"Two paths diverged in a wood, and something at the time prompted me to bear left, and that has made all the difference."

Or – I'm in a crowd of people on the sidewalk and ... "there is something different about that man!" Even though there's absolutely nothing physically remarkable about him. Maybe I don't do anything at all: I just walk on by. But, I do pay attention to such "feelings."

We've recently discovered that there are neurons in your abdomen: yes, it appears that your digestive system is computer-controlled. So, maybe there's some physical basis for "trust your gut" after all ...?

However, in situations like this I do not seek a rational (or, metaphysical ...) explanation, and it does not bother me at all not to have one. "This third-planet sure is a crazy-interesting place ...!"

This thread started life as a poll, but this kind of general topic is what it should be able to discuss.

It seems many, but not all of us have some influence from what we might call a supernatural source. It's not new, and it's too much to ignore, but I don't believe it's all necessarily real. There are even Scriptural examples.

When we total up the great number of contacts recorded in Scripture and other believable sources, along with faith healers, spoon benders, shamans, water diviners, witch doctors, spirit mediums etc. we can see a multiplicity of contact with humans by something outside our direct experience. What's lacking is a pattern or obvious motive for these contacts.

That's why I found Bible study beneficial was that it was the only source that allowed explanation of all these contacts.

When I was a very young kid and my parents had just moved us into a new house, we found out that the layout of the water supply lines was very strange: they went to a place where a much older house had once been. We needed to find the deeply-buried pipes, which were old and obviously leaking underground. A neighbor cut two wires out of coat hangers, bent them, and held the ends loosely in his hand. Then he started walking around. Suddenly the wires spread apart in his hand. Each time he walked over a particular spot, the wires did that. My dad dug there and found the pipe. This enabled him to then figure out the layout of the rest of the system.

Yes, he found it using a divining rod. Which he successfully used a number of times throughout the project. It worked every time.

I can't "explain" it, but I certainly watched it happen with my own little eyes.

As Charlie Daniels said about someone who went down to Georgia, "there's some things in this world you just can't explain."

I am a firm believer in GOD, but I have NO faith in religion!

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs Yes, he found it using a divining rod. Which he successfully used a number of times throughout the project. It worked every time. I can't "explain" it, but I certainly watched it happen with my own little eyes.

There is a possible (though speculative) explanation for water divining. Water seeping through clay soils changes the ionisation of clay minerals and this causes small local changes in the earth's magnetic field. You can measure them with a magnetometer. It is just possible that the brain's electromagnetic field can respond to these changes, at least in some sensitive people. The divining rod/pendulum/coat hangers are just devices that magnify small muscle twitches and make them visible. Whether such micro-movements are actually due to unconscious awareness of magnetic anomalies remains to be proved.