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firm believer 206 29.94%
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:13 AM   #8851
jamison20000e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
Well, for starters, you could Google "non-biblical historical evidence for jesus"
Although we won't see it, will we‽‽‽
 
Old 08-22-2019, 12:33 AM   #8852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
@Jamieson: how do you account for the existence of people like me who were brought up as atheists but became Christians as adults? There are plenty of us! Yes, I did get "RE" at school of course, but I remember finding it singularly unconvincing. I was converted by reading the closely argued theological works of C S Lewis, which appealed to me intellectually.
Hello hazel,
I know the above wasn't addressed to me but I hope you don't mind if I chime in. I certainly can't know the atmosphere around your home growing up but I've been an atheist really all my life but didn't come to full resolve until I was 13 when I "came out", yet my Son, while not involved in anything even approaching organized religion is far less scientific and far more "spiritual" than I or his Mother.

Much of the reason for that is because I never preached to my Son. I tended to lead by consistent behavior example and a calm demeanor, never saying "You were a bad boy", but instead "You did a bad thing" or "made a bad choice" so he got it from very early on that it was all about principles and choices, not something he would identify with or against.

I always answered his questions as best I could, and made a point that those were my observations and conclusions and that he should consider carefully and make up his own mind and not just on religion but everything. His wife and her Mother however were brought up in deep fundamentalist homes (like Tabernacle Baptist fundamental) and her Mom made the first break with all that, rather bitterly I should add, which drove both she, my Son's wife, and her Mom far away from him and neither speaks to him to this day. They were basically shunned.

Fortunately for me, though it was abundantly clear my folks were extremely disappointed and I felt some distance because of it, despite that I wasn't even close to disowned and was not only quite close to my whole family but cared for my Dad until he died from complications of diabetes. My Mom is still alive and though hundreds of miles apart still converse at least twice a month and for several hours at a time. I'm in regular contact with 3 of my 4 siblings and do still have reasonably pleasant interaction with the youngest from time to time. I think she never forgave me for getting married and moving out when she was 5.

The point is I got some pressure for sure but nothing like some friends of mine. Many of them stopped having anything to do with their families for years at a time and a few never recovered and closeness. This is almost entirely anecdotal, but over 72 years of living and more than a few times having been treated with those "devil horns" of disapproval from mild to extreme, I do see a logical pattern.

It seems to me that no atheists I've ever met because it is a NON belief ever have that sanctimonious "holier than thou" total black and white bent of character. Certainly as in the case I presented of my own family, not all religious people are so hardcore and rigid but some are. I see no problem that my Son is closer to religion than I. I didn't want let alone attempt to create a "carbon copy" though we are extremely close anyway. After he moved from Home he worked with me in business for many years and today we live less than 200 yards apart, talk daily, interact in many ways... we depend on each other quite a lot still. We even still just hang out because we enjoy each others companionship and conversation.

As I've said though, and maybe you have noticed, too, even though it is my understanding that the UK isn't as fundamentalist as some parts of the US are, that some religious families take extreme personal affront if any of their family even questions core beliefs, let alone has the gall to hold a differing POV.

So I'm guessing your folks raised you letting and even encouraging you to think for yourself, and I further think that is very common among atheist families... and not altogether common among the very religious.

Here's a bit of levity to cleanse the palette - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78

Last edited by enorbet; 08-22-2019 at 12:41 AM.
 
Old 08-22-2019, 01:28 AM   #8853
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@enorbet
See? You reply differently to different people. People are BIASed. When it comes to hazel you reply properly(either because she is opposite gender|sex or friend) yet when it comes to other people like me you ignore atmosphere that was used growing up that led to belief or disbelief and other factors in life story. What happened to equality? What happened to arguing against opinion without attacking opinion poster? For this reason i now agree with that poster who said he almost killed someone. It is forum bullying.
 
Old 08-22-2019, 05:57 AM   #8854
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My parents encouraged me to think for myself because they naturally assumed that I would then come to the same conclusions about life as they had. My mother was deeply upset when I "came out" as a Christian on my 21st birthday. That certainly wasn't what she had planned for.

My father was dead by that time. I don't know what he would have thought about it. He was a more tolerant person than my mother, probably because he had lost fewer relatives in the Holocaust than she had, but I doubt if he would have approved of my choice. That was one reason why I didn't come out sooner. I felt that putting my own interests before those of two other people was somehow not ethical (aren't teenagers priggish!). Besides, in those days you came of age at 21; before that you could not enter into a contract, incur a debt or marry a man your parents disapproved of, and I felt that Christian baptism was morally equivalent to doing all three of those at once.

In my fairly long life, I have not on the whole found atheists more tolerant than (English) Christians. There are some very intolerant atheists around including some who routinely post in this thread.
 
Old 08-22-2019, 06:23 AM   #8855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
Well, for starters, you could Google "non-biblical historical evidence for jesus"
i did, and there isn't any

got anymore bright ideas???
 
Old 08-22-2019, 06:33 AM   #8856
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Quote:
hazel
Hi.

I couldn't say for you why you chose the opinion to go into religion and of that which one to pick? Obviously this is an opinion, because there's plenty to pick from and you weren't born into a religion...

Imagine if we were born in a world where religion wasn't created and spiritual epiphanies had no meaning? Our brains run on drugs* nonetheless. We've come up with terms like: fight or flight, love and orgasm because their real feelings that can be explained just like when you get older you might see something out of the corner of your eye that's not there or at any time get some goose bumps? So in this hypothetical world you whould need something else to explain these feelings, rather than spirituality but I digress...

Why do you think I was born into religion: Sunday school, baptism, communion and kind of (I say kind of because for the longest time as kids we want for the force to be real, we want to move stuff with our minds but guess what) from the get-go saw it as fables to try to live a better life tho it's failing miserably? As fairy tales get fairy tales so lying to the children* just makes them blow stuff up I guess.

I think that's what religions for, so we can blow stuff up in the name of our gods or lie and cheat and then be forgiven or trick kids into being good because being bad will set you on fire... and of course so the average person doesn't freak out when they die or a loved one.

Have you tried some 50 Year Aged Balsamic Vinegar, Acetaia Reale, Italy - eg Caviar Star poured on a sliced in half organic cherry tomato? You should!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-22-2019 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Add a to
 
Old 08-22-2019, 06:40 AM   #8857
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I wouldn't stereotype christians or catholics; many of them maybe closet Atheist, who I also wouldn't stereotype...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-22-2019 at 06:42 AM.
 
Old 08-22-2019, 06:43 AM   #8858
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Again though, we're all atheists! Just some of us are way better at it believing in no god rather than just all the others...
 
Old 08-22-2019, 03:09 PM   #8859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
@enorbet
See? You reply differently to different people. People are BIASed. When it comes to hazel you reply properly(either because she is opposite gender|sex or friend) yet when it comes to other people like me you ignore atmosphere that was used growing up that led to belief or disbelief and other factors in life story. What happened to equality? What happened to arguing against opinion without attacking opinion poster? For this reason i now agree with that poster who said he almost killed someone. It is forum bullying.
The concept of bias could easily fill another thread partly because it comes in so many forms and it is difficult to distinguish between attitude and behavior. Many people are very inconsistent in this area somehow maintaining attitudes at considerable odds with how they behave. Example: Some racists know they are racist and admit it to themselves and others. Some only admit it to themselves. Others actually imagine they are not racist at all while actively behaving in even outrageous racist manners in objective terms. On the other side there are those that see racism in everything, even when any opinion is based on individual experience. Consider these words and as an aside talk about missed moments, I was 15 years old and was actually standing on Constitution Ave. in Washington, DC on the day this momentous speech was delivered, but left just before he delivered it in order to avoid the heavy traffic that would surely follow at the end. There was no Metro system in 1963 and it was certain busses would be jam packed, so I missed this... so close, but so far away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr. - "I Have a Dream"
I have a dream ... that my four little children ... will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
I was there with my girlfriend who was 16 and had her driver's license and had driven us to the outskirts of DC where we took the bus in. She had planned the trip but I was overjoyed that she did because I wanted to stand up for and participate in the struggle for equality and I had zero qualms about her being in the driver's seat. I like strong women because I wanted an equal not some brainless bimbo for a companion. I didn't and don't have any desire to dominate a female nor do I have any desire to be dominated and that is how I lived all my life.

In all objectivity my Dad was a chivalrous gentleman in that he didn't view women as equals but he was not also overbearing and he taught me as an example, "Any man that would strike a woman is not a man" and I bought it, not because he said so but because it made good sense. Taking advantage of... bullying, those weaker than you is just despicable and wrong. So I am quite certain that I do have a deference to women to offer gentility until I see that is not desired or deserved, as far as even people of today go, I'm pretty certain I am far less biased and far more gentle than most but I have only shied away from a fight when heavily outnumbered and had no hope of winning.

I have not bullied you, Arcane, nor do I wish to but hold back. I think I have actually been overly friendly with you by being gentle even when I find not only your arguments spacious and specious but the manner at which you arrive at such conclusions both stubborn and silly and I have done this in the hopes that it might help you to gain a better grasp on not only objective reality but how one properly arrives at that objectivity. The value in this should be obvious because once one establishes a progression of concepts that are known to be solid one can actually stand tall on firm ground so to speak. Mysticism offers only clouds to stand on.

Because of this latest post I am going to extend my decision about how I interact with you. I will still read your comments, but I will no longer respond unless you specifically ask me to. Apparently I have not been a good influence on you since any slap in the face I may have delivered didn't "wake you up" intellectually but only hurt your feelings and I have no desire to bully anyone. Good fortune, friend.
 
Old 08-22-2019, 03:40 PM   #8860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
My parents encouraged me to think for myself because they naturally assumed that I would then come to the same conclusions about life as they had. My mother was deeply upset when I "came out" as a Christian on my 21st birthday. That certainly wasn't what she had planned for.

My father was dead by that time. I don't know what he would have thought about it. He was a more tolerant person than my mother, probably because he had lost fewer relatives in the Holocaust than she had, but I doubt if he would have approved of my choice. That was one reason why I didn't come out sooner. I felt that putting my own interests before those of two other people was somehow not ethical (aren't teenagers priggish!). Besides, in those days you came of age at 21; before that you could not enter into a contract, incur a debt or marry a man your parents disapproved of, and I felt that Christian baptism was morally equivalent to doing all three of those at once.

In my fairly long life, I have not on the whole found atheists more tolerant than (English) Christians. There are some very intolerant atheists around including some who routinely post in this thread.
Ah! Thank you, hazel. This explains why I often previously had difficulty in assessing whether you were Jewish or Christian. I am of a similar background but one generation removed. My incredibly devout Catholic Grandfather on my Dad's side had the unmitigated audacity to marry a lovely Jewish girl, my Grandmother, who was one of my favorite people in all my life. I have historical documentation direct from the camps in which dozens of my ancestors relatives were imprisoned, enslaved, robbed and murdered.

All I can offer regarding the balance between atheists and the religious is that here, in the US, it is very different and far more extreme especially on the religious side. I personally have had Christians be far more overt. For example while I was working my way through college as an auto mechanic, a fellow worker upon over hearing a somewhat heated conversation between The Boss and me over his (illegally) docking my pay for a generator he thought I may have improperly polarized, stole that exact amount from the till in order to get me fired. I went to the bosses home and asked him if he thought I was stupid since there could be no other explanation for stealing the exact amount we argued over the very next day. His reply was that while that did seem odd, and he respected that I still wanted my job, he could not possibly trust me since I was an atheist (I had never told that to him. It was only part of a discussion between the employees when he was not present) and he could not handle the thought that I was so devious that I thought I could steal the exact amount and still get my job back making him look like a complete fool. That of course is rather mild. Others, elsewhere in the US have been murdered. Of course the same thing occurred in Europe in years past. I'm sure you are aware of The Inquistion, The Albigensian Heresy, etc etc etc.

I suppose the pogroms in Russia can be viewed as as an atheistic purge of the religious but I see it as all too common in authoritarian takeovers where the intelligentsia are "removed" that has little or nothing to do with religion but instead with smarts and political conflict. In your case. though your Mother was extremely upset, apparently she didn't disown or condemn you. That is utterly common over here, at least where the parents are religious. It is also obviously very common among those of Islam, not only of the non-religious but over very slight differences in interpretation of dogma, the most obvious possibly being the Sunni and Shiite conflict over which wars have been fought.

I don't recall any organization of atheists ever going to physical war with any collection of the religious...,. "Sticks and stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me", right?... well... sort of since lying in court or to one's employer can obviously hurt, but it does differentiate between the two basics.
 
Old 08-23-2019, 07:56 AM   #8861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I don't recall any organization of atheists ever going to physical war with any collection of the religious...,.
The communist government of China has routinely done so and still does. Look up Falong Gong. In communist Russia, persecution of Christians was more sporadic but it certainly happened under Stalin.
 
Old 08-23-2019, 08:30 AM   #8862
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Arrow

China is atheist, I thought they had Buddha and many other religions...

We stereotype, it's Human Nature...

"My country" is capitalist does that mean I am‽

If you look back to "biblical" times you wouldn't understand the language, unless you learn it!

The word religion meant nothing until it was created!

Borders are beliefs, racism is beliefs, after lifes are beliefs, using nuclear bombs is a belief; the aftermath is not!

Communism is a belief, even freedom is a belief... if you have a chance to be free, believe you are...

But, know you're bound by beliefs until we evolve that!!!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-23-2019 at 08:36 AM. Reason: [B]Forgot to put quotes for where I was randomly born, as I can imagine being born anywhere,,, can you![/B]
 
Old 08-23-2019, 09:07 AM   #8863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
China is atheist, I thought they had Buddha and many other religions...
Yes, China has many religions. But it isn't China that persecutes religious people, the Chinese government does. And they are militant atheists.
 
Old 08-23-2019, 11:57 AM   #8864
jamison20000e
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Well good for them then, I guess; you wouldn't want your kids sticking a fork in an electrical outlet would you, right?

Maybe your kid really likes the surge it gives them, they may say, makes them "feel "spiritual"" but as a dictator to your children you tell them no‽

Don't get me wrong, you could know my views on government,,, we should all garden ourselves!

But, education isn't universally worldwide though if it was religions not allowed in there, wonder why?
 
Old 08-23-2019, 12:00 PM   #8865
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Okay I'll point to why, educators are smart enough to want to teach the world's children, that makes them know better...
 
  


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