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Old 08-05-2010, 04:11 AM   #3916
cantab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard View Post
Patents encourage innovations.
But they can also restrict them. In medicine, where you're dealing with single inventions that cost a fortune to develop, the net effect is probably encouragement. In software, where you're dealing with combining lots of inventions together and development costs can be much lower, the net effect is probably restrictive. Software shouldn't have invention patents at all,

Quote:
The USA had all of the combustion engine and automobile patents but sold them all away. Years later, our car manufacturers are getting bailed out while the one we sold our patents to are living the high life.
The US motor industry is dying because it's spent decades making SHIT cars that NOBODY OUTSIDE THE US WANTS TO BUY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absent Minded View Post
My perspective might change "if" it were really possible to get any "credible" global news here but there isn't
The Beeb's credible enough to me. And if you want a news source completely apart from the "Western World", there's Al Jazeera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
Each time a law is passed, it costs money. Someone has to watch for people that violate that law, then someone else has to investigate to make sure it was violated, then someone else has to take it to court.
I agree that most countries have WAY too many laws. But this isn't due to some kind of political agenda. It's because whenever something happens, the population and the media scream at the government to "do something about it". Adding new laws is always understandable and justifiable when considering an individual bill, but the aggregate effect is negative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
Here's the ratings. See who watches Fox News and compare to the rest.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/r...ews/cable-news

You might notice, more people watch Fox News than almost all the others combined.
I notice that the other four EXCEEED Fox by a slight margin. The divide is honestly about 50:50 - if you consider Fox "Conservative" and the rest all "Liberal", then that's about equal to the political beliefs of the USA. People are simply watching the news that they feel is in accord with their political beliefs.
Not to mention you overlooked the possibility of biases in watching TV news versus getting news by papers or on the internet.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 04:17 AM   #3917
DrLove73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard View Post
And we have millions of gallons of oil and natural gas in the ANWR and Alaska. While it'll take sometime to get the goods, we aren't as shorthanded as the almighty EPA wants you to think.
Hahaha. Alaska? Melting Tundra? The one that can not support the weight of oil pipe-lines? Check this pictures of Siberian roads, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Highway, http://www.pixyard.com/_Most_dangero...n_road_33_pics (they are not able to pave them with asphalt, guess why?

Take a look at this:
http://netenergy.theoildrum.com/node/5500
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5945678/
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/Hubbert/wwf1976/print.htm

http://www.albartlett.org/interviews...interview.html
http://www.albartlett.org/books/esse...ponential.html
http://www.albartlett.org/articles/art2000jan.html

On the point of ever increasing population (which generates ever increasing consumption rate), Look "Arithmetic, Population and Energy" Documentary movie, lecture from Physics Phd, Professor Emeritus on unrelenting exponential function, especially Part 3. If you do not want to read any of those links, then please do watch Part 3 of this video, it is only 10 minutes of your time, but at the end you will start wondering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leopard View Post
You even made the point yourself that us Evil Capitalists have a much, much bigger and better income then many Euro-nanny states do. Our Capitalist health care system is far better then the UK's almighty NHS (of which the people of spoken and elected Conservatives which are deregulating NHS as we speak). So you can paint us as the worst of the worst, we the Capitalists are free. We the Capitalists are richer than the rest of the world. We the Capitalists are the people who provided the grounds for innovation. Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Apple, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, IBM, McDonalds and other wonderful companies (well OK Windows sucks but... ) are American. If it weren't for us Americans, the world would look a whole lot more primitive. By no means are we perfect. No system can be and no system ever will. But my make is my take and the Euro-guys can't say that...
Hmmm, it sounds rather familiar. Oh, I know:
Quote:
Overexpansion & Inflation

Many historians speculate that the rapid growth of the empire over a relatively short time and the economic inflation that followed could have contributed substantially to the empire's decay. Due to the incredible size of the empire, it required a huge budget to maintain many key elements in its survival such as roads (essential for communication, transportation, and the moving of armies) and aqueducts (many of Rome's cities relied on the water that it provided). At the time the empire was fighting enemies on all sides due to its expansion into their territories and was already contributing huge sums of silver and gold to keep up its armies. To try to combat both problems, the empire was forced to raise taxes frequently causing inflation to skyrocket. This in turn caused the major economic stress that others attribute as one of the causes for Rome's decline.
and
Quote:
In contrast with the declining empire theories, historians such as Arnold J. Toynbee and James Burke argue that the Roman Empire itself was a rotten system from its inception, and that the entire Imperial era was one of steady decay of institutions founded in Republican times. In their view, the Empire could never have lasted longer than it did without radical reforms that no Emperor could implement. The Romans had no budgetary system and thus wasted whatever resources they had available. The economy of the Empire was a Raubwirtschaft or plunder economy based on looting existing resources rather than producing anything new. The Empire relied on booty from conquered territories (this source of revenue ending, of course, with the end of Roman territorial expansion) or on a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed élite exempt from taxation. With the cessation of tribute from conquered territories, the full cost of their military machine had to be borne by the citizenry.
Ring a bell? It's from wikipedia: Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire

Comunistic Chine now owns ~25% of US Treasury Securities, ~868 billion dollars. They instituted birth controll to suppress public costs, thought their citizents to refrein from buying on credit, and 80-90% of the population goes to bed well before 22h (10PM). When there was socialisam in Serbia (not a comunisam, mind you!) 1 police officer was able to controll at least 1.000 of football (soccer) fans on the stadium, he was so feard (1:1000). Now, in democratic and capitalistic world of gread and criminals, even 1:10 does not help, producing even dead police officers. Until 1980-1990, just before the Yugoslav War, we hardly had any crime (apart from gready and corrupt politicians that is). Most of our criminal oriented citizens were operating in Western Europe countries. Now, you can even get killed for fancy cell(mobile) phone. That is what bothers me, decay of moral and honesty, not political organization of the state. In China they publicaly hang their corumpted politicians and business man, and confiscate their entire property. Imagine that every politician in US "on the take" is gone, and the rest are affraid to take bribe (sorry, contribution), so only those interested in prosperity of ordinary people become politicians. Wouldn't that be MUCH better?

Fall is iminent if nothing changes, especialy in USA since you are most developed and you spend per capita 30 times more than it is necessary (with implemented radical economisation measures). The rest of us yust hope you realise that untill it is too late. Maybe you should read SF book "Foundation" by Issac Asimov. SF is excelent ground for social experiments, and many of gread writers like Asimov (Robot Series and Foundation Series) and Ursula Le Guin (Novels of the Ekumen series). Even movie "Avatar" depicts what will happen if humans are allowed to do what ever they want in persue of personal wealth and gread.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 04:31 AM   #3918
DrLove73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantab View Post
I notice that the other four EXCEEED Fox by a slight margin. The divide is honestly about 50:50 - if you consider Fox "Conservative" and the rest all "Liberal", then that's about equal to the political beliefs of the USA. People are simply watching the news that they feel is in accord with their political beliefs.
Not to mention you overlooked the possibility of biases in watching TV news versus getting news by papers or on the internet.
Neither are objective. Best feel to me for objective reporting of Western World News agencies was during Yugoslav War in 1990-1995 and NATO vs Yugoslavia (aka Merciful Angel) when there was, for example, blatant missuse of photographs taken from WITHIN the barbe-wired storage photographing people standing OUTSIDE, next to the wire looking at reporters. It was portraid as picture of concentration camp! Of course, any government controlled news agency (IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) will blatantly falsify evidence, but just because you do not see the connection between "Fox" and "Others" and government or your two parties, it does not meen it is not there.

We really went OFF-topic, didn't we?

Last edited by DrLove73; 08-05-2010 at 04:32 AM.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 05:21 AM   #3919
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
The US is built on small government and freedom.
If that were really true, you guys would have elected Ron Paul. He was the only candidate at the last presidential election who was campaigning for smaller government... and almost all of the others (on both sides) thought he was crazy because of it.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 05:25 AM   #3920
cantab
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I think the idea of "small government" suffers from a bad case of NIMBYism. Many people say they want small government, but when it comes to what should be cut, no-one will ever say to cut what benefits them. It's always "no, that benefits the community (ie, the speaker), cut something else". So we're stuck with big government.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 06:15 AM   #3921
DrLove73
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Main issue is not the state of the government, but the state of peoples belife system. There is more lawyers in state of Washington then there are in entire Japan. Because they have 1000's of years old moral code of saving face and/or dignity. No money can replace lost face/family name. That is why there are cases for instance of person in charge commiting suicide when their train systems had collapses. But even their culture is crumbling under Western philosophy.

Western philosophy is just get money and who cares about family name, face or dignity. And grow, grow, bigger is better. They why do you expect them to even think about shrinking anything where you are so great and powerfull? I can see this also in Eastern Europe countries in last 20-30 years. It's a bubble on the brink of it's max capacity. If you/we do not start do deflate it it will burst, and only way to deflate it is to radically change how people think. Even if you/we start now, it will take full generation to reap the beneffits.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 07:11 AM   #3922
MTK358
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I'm too lazy to read all the posts that happened this night, but it reminds me of something I always wondered about recently:

How do patents encourage invention?

Comparing a patented and non-patented device seems to be like proprietary vs. open-source. With the non-patented device, anyone can make one for their own needs and improve it.

Does this have anything to do with this "open-source hardware" term I sometimes hear?
 
Old 08-05-2010, 07:22 AM   #3923
cantab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
How do patents encourage invention?
Traditionally, invention costs money. You have to build and test physical things. You'll probably spend a lot of money on failure before you get something that works.

Without patents, anyone can copy your invention. They didn't have to pay any of the development costs and they can start profiting from it. Patents increase the potential reward to the inventor, encouraging them to take greater risks.

However, the system has been subverted, in that patents seem to nowadays be awarded for "nice ideas" that are pencil-and-paper things. It costs next to nothing to test software, yet it can get the same patent restrictions on it as on medicines that cost millions to test. Business methods can be patented having never been tested at all.

Another problem is that courts impose greater penalties if they consider the patent infringement to be intentional. (I think it can be triple damages). This seems reasonable, but it has the consequence that developers don't dare check their work against patents, for fear that if they did, but deemed a patent to not apply and the courts deemed it to apply, they would be held for the higher damages. The litigous patent holders benefit from this regime.

Last edited by cantab; 08-05-2010 at 07:25 AM.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 11:38 AM   #3924
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
If that were really true, you guys would have elected Ron Paul. He was the only candidate at the last presidential election who was campaigning for smaller government... and almost all of the others (on both sides) thought he was crazy because of it.
Amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantab View Post
I think the idea of "small government" suffers from a bad case of NIMBYism. Many people say they want small government, but when it comes to what should be cut, no-one will ever say to cut what benefits them. It's always "no, that benefits the community (ie, the speaker), cut something else". So we're stuck with big government.
Double amen! That is why a collectivist government which redistributes the wealth of it's citizens will never be eradicated until such time as it collapses from it's own unsustainability and moral decay of the dysfunctional society it fosters.

Everyone thinks under such a system that they are receiving benefit at their neighbor's expense- (not realizing that their neighbors are also receiving benefits at their and their children's expense, and that those who administer the system receive the most benefits)- and so they will never vote to disband the slave master who provides their bread.

This is why their are few "real" conservatives left in the US, and why even amongst the Tea Party movement, you never hear them call for an end to Social Security or Medicare- they instead want to preserve those things- an idea which is antithetical to freedom and small government.

This is why someone like George Bush can call himself a conservative and other so-called conservatives will vote for him, because most conservatives today, sadly, are not so conservative- they are just (as I call them) liberal-lites.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cantab View Post

However, the system has been subverted, in that patents seem to nowadays be awarded for "nice ideas" that are pencil-and-paper things. It costs next to nothing to test software, yet it can get the same patent restrictions on it as on medicines that cost millions to test. Business methods can be patented having never been tested at all.
It doesn't matter whether something works or not- a patent is just to protect a persons idea and to guarantee that he will be the one to recieve any benefit from the implementation of his idea without others copying it or claiming ownership. If I were to write a program (It could happen...NOT!) or design a mouse-trap...even if it were completely useless, I could still patent it to protect my work...maybe I want a non-working mouse-trap...or maybe I will improve it later and just want to protect certain aspects of it's design or features, etc. now.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 12:30 PM   #3925
cantab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
This is why their are few "real" conservatives left in the US, and why even amongst the Tea Party movement, you never hear them call for an end to Social Security or Medicare- they instead want to preserve those things- an idea which is antithetical to freedom and small government.
Welfare programs are not "antithetical to freedom". And "freedom" is worthless to the homeless and the starving. It's all very well to elevate freedom as the most important thing, but it's not - basic survival is. And if a government does not protect and look after its citizens' basic needs, that government is utterly worthless. Defence, policing, healthcare, and social security are the "core" functions of government, what it does to ensure its citizens aren't killed and don't die of starvation or disease. Everything else is extra, but a government that doesn't provide those key functions is worse than no government at all.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 01:16 PM   #3926
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantab View Post
Welfare programs are not "antithetical to freedom". And "freedom" is worthless to the homeless and the starving. It's all very well to elevate freedom as the most important thing, but it's not - basic survival is. And if a government does not protect and look after its citizens' basic needs, that government is utterly worthless. Defence, policing, healthcare, and social security are the "core" functions of government, what it does to ensure its citizens aren't killed and don't die of starvation or disease. Everything else is extra, but a government that doesn't provide those key functions is worse than no government at all.
Yes, such programs are antithetical to freedom- because when someone else's "need" mandates that property (the fruit of one's labor) be forcibly taken from others, it establishes a condition of slavery (It matters not if someone stands over you with a whip forcing you to work for others, ort whether the proceeds of the work you choose to do are taken from you- it amounts to the same thing)

This is why there was no provision in the Constitution for government-run welfare programs. And I hate to tell you, but these welfare programs have existed for 75 years now..and we still see the same poverty amongst a small segment of the population, because most poverty is caused by the choices and actions taken by those who are impoverished.

Someone who can not even support themself goes out and has a kid- and then that obligates ME to support their family? That is not freedom...but rather slavery and oppression.

Private charity is fine- but government coercion and redistribution of wealth is not. We live in a country where illegal immigrants who don't speak the language can come and find jobs and support themselves and even send money back to their country...while millions of our own citizens sit around and complain that they need the money of others to survive?

I'm sorry, but those who refuse to support themselves and their families, they are the ones who can not handle freedom and don't deserve it- but instead, thanks to the welfare system, their situation instead takes away our freedom.

And have you ever noticed? This is the only country in the world where the "poor" are obese! I see it in the supermatkets all the time- someone will be on line in front of me with a cart full of soda, potato chips, frozen pizzas and frozen dinners, and they will weigh 400 lbs and have a few fat kids, all sipping on 96 oz. cups of soda....then they will pay with foodstamps, and then pay cash for $70 worth of cigarettes- and then in addition to paying for their food, we also get to pick up the cost of their healthcare when they get sick from eating all that crap. This is the norm. Meanwhile, I, who make a very modest income but can live within my means (I buy whole wheat spaghetti, rice, beans, fresh fruit and veggies....flour..oil...) have to support these dysfunctional cretins who will not live within their means, and who are provided more luxury at my expense. This is SICK and needs to stop- and it will stop...as a society where the gov't consumes over 40% of the GDP, and where over 50% of the population receives the major part of their income from the gov't, is just too unsustainable to continue and just creates more poverty and penalizes the productive while rewarding the lazy and irresponsible.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 02:55 PM   #3927
damgar
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My problem with Sara Palin and Rush Limbaugh is less about their hysterical and oppurtunistic ranting and more that people quote them as if they were the second coming. It's FUD and then some. If we're gonna speak in sound bytes I prefer Ferris Bueller
Quote:
Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 03:08 PM   #3928
dalek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damgar View Post
My problem with Sara Palin and Rush Limbaugh is less about their hysterical and oppurtunistic ranting and more that people quote them as if they were the second coming. It's FUD and then some. If we're gonna speak in sound bytes I prefer Ferris Bueller
And some people do the same with Obama too. Who was it Chris Mathews that said he got a 'thrill up his leg' when Obama was coming out to speak? I question them all myself. Some just have history on their side.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 04:31 PM   #3929
lupusarcanus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
I'm too lazy to read all the posts that happened this night, but it reminds me of something I always wondered about recently:

How do patents encourage invention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Patents encourage innovation. I never said that you had to have them. In many cases patents have helped and patents have hurt, and Linux is an example of why not having patents can lead to a good thing. Just as having them does. When I make an invention or innovation, I am not required to make a patent. All I'm saying is, it's nice to be able to say I invented Foobar and I own the exclusive right to make a trillion billion dollars off of it. Or, I am going to submit my product to the world and have the world community improve it to the point of awesome.

I'll rephrase; Optional patents encourage innovation because the will to make it is there -- because the reward and the pursuit of it -- is possible.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantab
But they can also restrict them. In medicine, where you're dealing with single inventions that cost a fortune to develop, the net effect is probably encouragement. In software, where you're dealing with combining lots of inventions together and development costs can be much lower, the net effect is probably restrictive. Software shouldn't have invention patents at all,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Patents encourage innovation. I never said that you had to have them. In many cases patents have helped and patents have hurt, and Linux is an example of why not having patents can lead to a good thing. Just as having them does. When I make an invention or innovation, I am not required to make a patent. All I'm saying is, it's nice to be able to say I invented Foobar and I own the exclusive right to make a trillion billion dollars off of it. Or, I am going to submit my product to the world and have the world community improve it to the point of awesome.

I'll rephrase; Optional patents encourage innovation because the will to make it is there -- because the reward and the pursuit of it -- is possible.

Last edited by lupusarcanus; 08-05-2010 at 04:32 PM.
 
Old 08-05-2010, 04:49 PM   #3930
lupusarcanus
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The reason why we don't have many politicians in power championing small government is because Liberal Democrat, Progressive propaganda, media control and education indoctrination have obfuscated the truth. If you ask people in America what they're position on politics is, most likely the answer you will receive is "I don't care.", or "I don't follow politics." These people blindly vote for a Democrat simply because they say nice things and make huge ridiculous promises which never manifest. There is an awakening amongst Americans and Americans are seeing the truth. They are seeing the truth and organizing against these radical, communist revolutionaries. The Tea Party and the 9/12 project and the Conservatism rejuvenation in the Republican party evidence this. The United States of America is based on small government. It's based on the Constitution. It's not that we must reform or change, it's that we must restore what these corrupt politicians and Progressives have taken from us.
 
  


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