Thank God for the Supreme Court of the United States!
GeneralThis forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!
Notices
Welcome to LinuxQuestions.org, a friendly and active Linux Community.
You are currently viewing LQ as a guest. By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics, receive our newsletter, use the advanced search, subscribe to threads and access many other special features. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today!
Note that registered members see fewer ads, and ContentLink is completely disabled once you log in.
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you need to reset your password, click here.
Having a problem logging in? Please visit this page to clear all LQ-related cookies.
Get a virtual cloud desktop with the Linux distro that you want in less than five minutes with Shells! With over 10 pre-installed distros to choose from, the worry-free installation life is here! Whether you are a digital nomad or just looking for flexibility, Shells can put your Linux machine on the device that you want to use.
Exclusive for LQ members, get up to 45% off per month. Click here for more info.
It's the same old same old - nothing new here really. Friendly sponsors of terror, friendly human rights abusers and friendly "tyrants" are OK. Sad situation.
Yep. Reprimanding Western European leaders while sucking up to the worst tyrants an dictators is eroding much of what remains of the goodwill to the US in a large portion of the rest of the world. Sad!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedagtes
As I said, the list is apparently based on an Obama survey.
Leaving out 'survey' (I don't know where you pulled that one from), that is pure spin, spin, spin.
It's based on comments by Reince Priebus and Sean Spicer in late January 2017. Reince Priebus is the source for the 'those countries the worst of a bad bunch' idea. The actual quote is-
Quote:
Here’s the deal: If you're coming in and out of one of those seven countries -- by the way, identified by the Obama administration as the seven most dangerous countries in the world in regard to harboring terrorists and affirmed by Congress multiple times -- then you're going to be subjected temporarily with more questioning until a better program is put in place over the next several months.
They were never identified by the Obama administration as 'the seven most dangerous countries in the world in regard to harbouring terrorists'. Or congress as far as I know. More information in the link above if you want detail.
In that one statement there is one at best twisted fact ('seven most dangerous countries') and one outright lie ('subjected temporarily with more questioning')
A Republican president (with Republicans controlling both Congress and Senate) can write whatever bills with no input from the Democrats or previous administrations. So if there is a correlation between trump trvael ban 1 or 2 and the Obama suspension of the Visa Wavier Program its more about similar geopolitical realities and concerns about possible fallout.
The trump administration is trying to blame Obama even though he had nothing to do with trumps travel ban.
But y'all want to get mad about something, get mad about THIS!
When you're your own branch of government, have lifetime appointments and are accountable to no one, you get to choose your own hours.
But, in any case, they do have to be able to be contacted all the time because although they are not hearing oral arguments or deliberating on cases, emergency appeals come to them all the time and they have to be able to issue things like emergency stays on executions and other important "time is of the essence" matters.
Like I said, the thing that is common between these six countries is that they have no working government with which to get official information about the people from that country. The country with the largest population of Muslims in the world is Indonesia, which is totally unaffected by the ban. So it is not a ban against Muslims. And this would be the first time ever that courts looked at statements made by a Presidential candidate to influence or at least back-up their rulings. They should look only to what's within the four corners of the paper the President signed.
1) Complaining about stability and invalid passports of certain countries might be valid IF THERE HAD BEEN NO EXCLUSION FOR CHRISTIANS from those same countries. Who is validating those passports?
2) This was not "legislation". It was an executive order.
3) The purpose of the courts is to insure that matters that come before them are both LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL. Many times courts have overturned "legislation" because it wasn't CONSTITUTIONAL. The Congress (and state and local governments) do NOT get to override the Constitution. Many times the courts have overturned "executive orders" or just plain policies because they are NOT Legal or are not Constitutional. The President and the rest of the Executive Branch can not just ignore the laws passed by Congress.
Conservatives love it when the Supreme Court does something like overturning hand gun laws as "unconstitutional" but then decry "Judicial meddling" when they do something like Brown vs Board of Education. You can't have it both ways. Either they make decisions about laws and Constitutional protections or they don't.
It is quite chilling to see how many people are willing to elect a dictator around the world. Even if YOU like the current dictator NOW the chances he'll get worse over time are high and the chances you'll like the guy that follows him who gets the same autocratic powers are extremely low. History is rife with people that gave up power to dictators and found themselves in even worse straits within 10 years than they were in when they thought that person would solve all their problems. I for one am quite happy we have separation of powers in our government so that there is a constant vetting of laws and policies rather than just one man saying "I decree...".
Last edited by MensaWater; 06-27-2017 at 03:12 PM.
1) Complaining about stability and invalid passports of certain countries might be valid IF THERE HAD BEEN NO EXCLUSION FOR CHRISTIANS from those same countries. Whois validating those passports?
It wasn't just for Christians it was for Yazidis too because they are definitely being persecuted. The majority of the Court would have upheld the original executive order that included that anyway.
Quote:
2) This was not "legislation". It was an executive order.
There is legislation, as I posted above, that clearly gives the President the power to do this by executive order. (it uses the term "by proclamation").
Quote:
3) The purpose of the courts is to insure that matters that come before them are both LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL. Many times courts have overturned "legislation" because they aren't CONSTITUTIONAL. The Congress (and state and local governments do NOT get to override the Constitution. Many times the courts have overturned "executive orders" or just plain policies because they are NOT Legal or are not Contstitutional. The President and the rest of the Executive Branch can no just ignore the laws passed by Congress.
The President has the constitutional power anyway, the legislation just backs it up. The Court has always upheld that power. The President's power is at its zenith at the border where he alone has the power to admit someone or deny their admittance.
How do you know what the court would have done on the original order?
In my first post I acknowledged the President has the authority to exclude (based on law and Constitution) but noted that the challenge to his order was based on a separate Constitutional provision in that he clearly made the distinction based on religion in both his campaign rhetoric and his initial order. Court decisions are often based on competing Constitutional provisions and/or interpretations of those provisions. President is NOT the same thing as Dictator no matter how much some people want it to be.
2) This was not "legislation". It was an executive order.
3) The purpose of the courts is to insure that matters that come before them are both LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL. Many times courts have overturned "legislation" because it wasn't CONSTITUTIONAL. The Congress (and state and local governments) do NOT get to override the Constitution. Many times the courts have overturned "executive orders" or just plain policies because they are NOT Legal or are not Constitutional. The President and the rest of the Executive Branch can not just ignore the laws passed by Congress.
About a hundred years into the history of our country, the Supreme Court – entirely on its own initiative – decided to declare something to be "unconstitutional." (Actually, the President had done it first.) In so doing, they ventured into an uncharted territory that the actual text of the Constitution says absolutely nothing about. "And, since then, they have never left."
In your comment, Mensa, you simply drink the same juice: "The Congress, State and Local Governments do not get to override the Constitution!" Which is to say that, in fact, "the Courts, and only the Courts," are the only true Source of Law, and that they have the sovereign prerogative to declare those laws "by utterance."
"The Supreme Council of the Nine Monarchs," declaring the Law of the Land, both the Congress and the President Notwithstanding!" Forsooth, by "the Divine Right of Kings," minus the "Divine."
- - -
In the actual case here, the Executive was exercising a prerogative and a power that had been expressly granted to him by Congress. The second version of the Executive Order explicitly mentions the enabling legislation.
However, this is the actual interpretation, as seen by the Courts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Actual Law of the United States of America:
"Here Ye! Here Ye! Let ALL other Branches keep silent, and Hear Ye the IMPERIAL PROCLAMATIONS OF HIS MAJESTY, KING JOHN ROBERTS THE FIRST!!" As he doth now PROCLAIM to ALL OF YE what the Actual LAW of the LAND shall BE – to be decided as soon as His Majesty get back from vacation three months hence."
HIS ROYAL MAJESTY doth, for a few weeks at least, Graciously Permit 'the Executive' to "fiddle around for a few more weeks, maybe," until HIS MAJESTY shall DICTATE to both the CONGRESS and to the PRESIDENT what HIS ROYAL MAJESTY shall PERMIT them to do!
Until then, "Let the Entire Government of the United States KEEP SILENT BEFORE HIM!!"
"Either the Congress has the power to grant Powers and Prerogatives to the Executive, or it does not." And, if it does not, then we are left with ... a Monarchy, where the Monarch is not a single individual but rather a Supreme Court, anchoring its Supreme Powers upon its own(!) Sovereign Interpretation of a document that "means whatever Their Majesties decree that it shall mean."
Almost before the ink was dry on the US Constitution, several of its framers knew that they had left "unfinished business." They very accurately predicted that the Judiciary would "stealthily" seek to expand its power, and in precisely the way that it is now doing.
Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-27-2017 at 04:13 PM.
Justice Clarence Thomas, joined by Justices Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch, wrote separately to say they would have revived Mr Trump’s travel ban in full. The “compromise will burden executive officials with the task of deciding—on peril of contempt— whether individuals from the six affected nations who wish to enter the United States have a sufficient connection to a person or entity in this country”, they wrote, and will invite “a flood of litigation”. And, Justice Thomas added, the very judges that blocked Mr Trump’s travel ban would probably be the ones considering whether a potential traveler has a “bona fide” reason for being excused from it.
You will see, upon reading, that the Court did not uphold the President's prerogatives in this matter, as granted to him by Congress, but continue to meddle with it by more-or-less inventing (in my view) various groups of Americans who can now claim that their Constitutional rights are violated by not admitting this-or-that person. In this regard, the Court is setting itself up once more to be President.
Trouble is – the Judicial Branch is not the Executive, and neither is it the Legislature. If the Congress grants to the President the power and the discretion to exclude someone for as long as he wishes, or to do any other thing, then the Judiciary has nothing to do with it: the Executive has the granted powers and prerogatives. The Judicial Branch has no standing to decide (case by case, or otherwise) whether or not the President's order "should" apply. Congress has the power to create Law, and within that Law to grant both powers and prerogatives to the President. This power does not derive from, and is not contingent upon, any action or inaction by the Judicial Branch.
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,881
Rep:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf
I don't understand the rationale behind singling out Syria, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Sudan and Somalia while omitting countries such as Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Qatar, UAE, Turkey and Iraq for example.
One can only conclude that Iran, Syria and Sudan are included due to their being listed by the US State Departments as "state sponsors of terrorism" (notably the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia are absent from this list).
Libya, Yemen and Somalia are probably listed due to their political instability and the activity of militias and islamists.
All seems very token and will no doubt effect some popular appeasement, but in reality, people are no safer as a result. The 9/11 hijackers were supposedly from Saudi Arabia and the Boston Marathon bombers were dual nationality US citizens from none of those countries which are listed. In fact if you look at all the islamist attacks on US soil since the early 1990s, none of those countries listed feature very much. Homegrown radicals or those with direct or ancestral links to the Gulf states or Egypt are far more common.
It always helps when countries like Saudi Arabia are some of the biggest arms buyers of the US... you can even murder and dismember your "critics" like Jamal Khashoggi, in your consulates, in a foreign country and you're still golden. Even the US's own intelligence agencies say Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was very likely behind it/ordered it. Even a UN report about it found that he likely ordered it. Has he faced any consequences for it? Nope. What did Trump or any spineless "western governments" do about it? Nothing. Trump even said something to the effect of "well, they buy a lot of arms from us, so I've decided not to take any action". Absolute and total hypocrites.
I don't think Iran for one is a buyer of US arms, funny that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf
It's the same old same old - nothing new here really. Friendly sponsors of terror, friendly human rights abusers and friendly "tyrants" are OK. Sad situation.
Indeed, sad, but very true. This world is so f**king corrupt, it's not even funny...
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing
Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute
content, let us know.