Shipping a Linux Kernel with Windows

Didier Spaier · 05-07-2019, 04:05 AM

Is it a joke? No.
Is it April 1st? No.
Is it official? Yes.

Turbocapitalist · 05-07-2019, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didier Spaier

Is it a joke? No.
Is it April 1st? No.
Is it official? Yes.

Is it true? Probably not.

Let's see if there is a reliable third party which can confirm or deny this claim coming out of Redmond. Remember that they've also lied, and had the media mindlessly repeat the lies, that MS SQL runs on Linux. However, even casual investigation showed that it was actually running on Drawbridge, not Linux. So I figure the case must be similar here and would hold off any promotion of their claims until it is proven true or not.

syg00 · 05-07-2019, 04:31 AM

Not yet it's not (shipping).

Shouldn't this be in "General" rather than Slack ?. I haven't tried WSL in a while, but I don't recall a Slack build being available.

keithpeter · 05-07-2019, 04:32 AM

Quote from the page that Didier links to...

Quote:

For years now, these Linux developers have enabled Microsoft to support new platform features in the wide number of distributions provided in the Azure Marketplace.

I think that Microsoft are following the money. They see 'cloud' and 'services' as their future market. So they have to support linux based workloads. The Ballmer era has gone definitely!

elcore · 05-07-2019, 06:01 AM

Not sure that this is a gift, it looks more like a struggle to keep control over first link in a hypervisor chain.
Maybe because host control over the guest is a feature, while guest control over the host is a vulnerability.
Depends on your point of view, I suppose.

michaelk · 05-07-2019, 06:10 AM

Moved: This thread is more suitable in General and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question get the exposure it deserves.

Lysander666 · 05-07-2019, 06:13 AM

This comes as a bit of a surprise, but only inasmuch as it's happened so early. MS have been good at knowing when the game's up and looking to the future. They know when they have to give in.

W10 is a big patch on top of a big patch on top of a service pack. MS are looking to Linux and they see it as the future of Windows. They bought Github, they are platinum members of The Linux Foundation, Edge is going to be Chromium-based and now they are shipping a 4.19 kernel with W10. It's time for everyone to stop being in denial: Windows 10 probably will be the last version of Windows as they promised - because Windows 11 will be, and will be called, something entirely different.

orbea · 05-07-2019, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander666

They know when they have to give in.

Extend, embrace and extinguish. This is an age old tactic.

sevendogsbsd · 05-07-2019, 08:59 AM

Now that they have a solid kernel, they can get rid of the mess on top of it

upnort · 05-07-2019, 11:49 AM

Meh. I remain unmotivated to use Windows as a production system.

sevendogsbsd · 05-07-2019, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upnort

Meh. I remain unmotivated to use Windows as a production system.

Agree completely.

enorbet · 05-07-2019, 08:47 PM

At this late date I think it is impossible to extinguish Linux. Considering how little market share MS has in The Cloud, Smartphones (bwahahahah) Supercomputers... everywhere but The Desktop and further considering how little market share Linux has yet WINE is very successful even supporting a number of spinoffs for pay (one of which threatens MS hold on gaming, an extremely valuable market) it seems only fitting when one doesn't have to or want to spend, say, 38 Billion Dollars, to follow WINE's example and make it possible to support Linux apps in Windows. I'll never use it but first Apple, then IBM and now Microsoft, late to the party but ok come on in and have a drink and a dance. Just mind your manners and we can all get along and enjoy the Music.

Turbocapitalist · 05-08-2019, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enorbet

At this late date I think it is impossible to extinguish Linux.

Hmm. Now that UEFI is widespread, you already need a distro with a booting key which has been signed by M$ to even get started on almost all off-the-shelf x86 systems, from notebooks to servers. Thus GNU/Linux distros now require M$ permission to even boot. It would not be that many more steps to a situation where Linux will only boot either on custom hardware or within an annointed Windoze environment. Greg K-H himself worked towards M$-based virtualization, so there are people high up in Linux that are not opposed to that, or at least not vigilant.

Remember also that although Google / Alphabet has been a major backer of both GNU/Linux and the kernel by itself it is almost ready with a direct comptetitor, Fuchsia. Once Fuchsia is in place they can phase out ChromeOS and Android by attrition over five or so years, with less and less investment in Linux during that time. At the end they can drop anything that is left.

Lastly, I'll point out again that the Linux Foundation is a trade group to advance the interests of its members within Linux, not the other way around. We haven't seen any help from them and in the direction they have been heading we are less and less likely to ever.

Lysander666 · 05-08-2019, 04:42 AM

Brian Lunduke's recent video on this is very good. His theory is that with MS using Linux, things will go the way of Android inasmuch as there will be a Linux kernel but with a lot of closed source stuff on top and everyone can just 'get on'. Linux would then become the recognised kernel for, well, nearly everyone. Having said that...

Turbocapitalist brings up some good points. We have to see the way the world is going - everything tech-related is being funnelled down to just a few companies. Google own most of the internet, Facebook is losing its mantle, Apple is the biggest company in the world, there are concerns that the PC gaming market will tank and give way to consoles in the next few years [effectively killing nVidia], and MS have their sites on Linux. Even though I think it's very difficult to extinguish Linux, it is not impossible ['extinguish', in this sense of the word, means removing the freedom that others have to copy, use and modify the kernel]. MS like to think several moves ahead. Notice that Google is now thinking generations ahead, and there's no reason why MS wouldn't do the same. I think it's perfectly possible that things will get to a point where MS find some clever way to effectively 'own' the Linux kernel which people can't currently deduce. Their monopoly is in one place and one place only - the desktop - and they have to do everything they can to keep it.

They have their sites on BSD too, so nothing will be safe. Of course, this is all speculation, but it's speculation based on many years of consistent behaviour.

Have a read of the Halloween documents, MS have been scared of Linux's power for years. Some of ESR's insights:

Quote:

Microsoft perceives a product to be a threat if it presents itself as any of these:

a revenue alternative -- somebody might spend money on a non-MS -- product
a platform alternative -- MS might lose its monopoly position
a developer alternative -- people might actually write software for a non-MS product.

Quote:

The real battle isn't NT vs. Linux, or Microsoft vs. Red Hat/Caldera/S.u.S.E. -- it's closed-source development versus open-source. The cathedral versus the bazaar.

This applies in reverse as well, which is why bashing Microsoft qua Microsoft misses the point -- they're a symptom, not the disease itself. I wish more Linux hackers understood this.

On a practical level, this insight means we can expect Microsoft's propaganda machine to be directed against the process and culture of open source, rather than specific competitors

Quote:

...in every release cycle Microsoft always listens to its most ignorant customers. This is the key to dumbing down each release cycle of software for further assaulting the non-PC population. Linux and OS/2 developers, OTOH, tend to listen to their smartest customers. This necessarily limits the initial appeal of the operating system, while enhancing its long-term benefits. Perhaps only a monopolist like Microsoft could get away with selling worse products each generation -- products focused so narrowly on the least-technical member of the consumer base that they necessarily sacrifice technical excellence. Linux and OS/2 tend to appeal to the customer who knows greatness when he or she sees it. The good that Microsoft does in bringing computers to the non-users is outdone by the curse they bring upon the experienced users, because their monopoly position tends to force everyone toward the lowest-common-denominator, not just the new users.

Note: This means that Microsoft does the heavy lifting of expanding the overall PC marketplace. The great fear at Microsoft is that somebody will come behind them and make products that not only are more reliable, faster, and more secure, but are also easy to use, fun, and make people more productive. That would mean that Microsoft had merely served as a pioneer and taken all the arrows in the back, while we who have better products become a second wave to homestead on Microsoft's tamed territory.

These documents are 20 years old now, but I can't imagine much has changed. There is more proof than ever that MS sees Linux as a threat.

average_user · 05-08-2019, 10:06 AM

The good thing is that thanks to Linux open source nature it won't be easy for a single company to extinguish it completely. But things come and go, Google is working on Fuchsia and new PS5 is going to come with BSD derivative again - just 2 examples but the point is that Linux is not used by everybody everywhere (yet?) and it's not like it's 100% certain that it will still be relevant in 20 years from now, even without Microsoft's possibly threatening behavior.