Not quite ... that would be like saying you need to write a bunch
of kernel modules ... to get the car analogy back on track: you
shouldn't drive a car if break, accelerator and steering-wheel
don't mean anything to you.

That aside: it's not about people saying that SuSE is dumb
(well, it kind of makes its users dumb, but that is a whole
different story). The point is the cost of those comforts, they
come with a performance penalty. And the thicker you make
the cushion, the slower you will travel. In the end: why don't
just stick with Windows if one loves it? The thing is that Linux
wasn't made with the intention to be a free drop-in replacement
for Windows.


Cheers,
Tink

Thanks mate ... ;)

I agree Tinkster......Let linux be linux and windows be windows and don't try and change linux into the free windows replacement. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses. Let people choose what they want instead of ridiculing those who use somethign you don't like.....

The issue for me is one of performance, though when Linux works for me I like it a lot more than I ever liked using Windows.

The issue for me is a strictly moral one.

I will not use Microsoft products because I believe Microsoft is a corrupt, immoral corporation with predatory, invasive, and unethical marketing practices and user requirements.

I will quit using computers before I will go back to using Microsoft.

I cannot afford Apple products, and even if I could, I would prefer Open-Source software to anything proprietary--again, a moral issue, though not one so strong as my feelings against Microsoft.

To say, "Let them use Windows" is to unfairly lump all perplexed Linux users together. Some of us WILL NOT use Microsoft, period. If we are to be able to take part in the community represented by the Internet, we must either use Linux, Mac OS, or some other operating system. It's not as though we were gluttons for punishment. It's that we have moral convictions that matter to us.

Tink,

I would agree with you except to say that it ALLOWS its users to be dumb, if they so choose. Linux is all about choice right? I installed it on a P166 by doing a minimal install running it in text mode and stripping out all the stuff I didn't need out of the kernal, (I like to think that goes a little way to proving my lack of dumbness ) and it flies!

On the opposite side of the coin my father-in-law has it installed on his PC with all the cushions in place and he's happy as larry ( I often wonder who is Larry and is he actually really happy?) he doesn't want or need to know how much activity is going on under the surface.

Like I say, all things to all people. There's nothing wrong with the cushions being available as long as you can choose not to use them. The problem with windows (all right, all right ONE of the PROBLEMS) is that the cushions are attached with industrial grade adhesive and you can't take them off no matter how much they annoy you. Big Bill has decreed you WILL do it HIS WAY!!! And your not allowed to see under the bonnet of your own car you naughty boy!

Also in my defence Linus himself wrote in his book that ideally an OS should be completely transparent the user should not be aware of it, or something along those lines. Got a train to catch now but I'll dig out the quote later.

There are (nasty, horrible) GUI tools for configuring Cisco routers. I'm perfectly happy about that as I can ignore them and proceed directly to the command line. If Cisco blocked access to the command line saying "use the GUI its loverly!" I'd have to have a nervous breakdown and take up flower arranging for a living

And what about those who want to switch?

From my own experience I know that most people need their computers. When you had exclusively MS-OSs to deal with and then start with Linux to work you need something like SuSE and its "cushions".

Of course we are dumb, but for chrissake let us learn, this will in some instances mean SuSE and the like, but learning by doing can start right then (after work is done). Nobody is glued to SuSE after all.

end of rant

PS: And when I'm grown up I'll even try a true Linux like Slackware or Debian -- or *BSD

This is quite true, and goes along with what I say. (I take exception only to the assertion that "we are dumb." We may not be technically inclined, some of us, but that is far from being dumb. Many outstanding creative people are technophobes. And I'm fairly sure there are a number of Linux experts who would be incapable of writing a symphony or a good novel, or even doing molecular biology.)

The more "cushiony"Linux can be made, the better, for those who need all the support they can get to use their computers. Anything that can legally and practically be done to take people away from the clutches of Microsoft and deliver them into a more humane computing environment is OK by me, and I applaud such devices as the Gnome desktop, KDE, any and all GUI's, that "experts" scoff at and abhor.

There is room for many kinds of computing environments--all within a morally acceptable non-exploitative, non-predatory, preferably patent-free, preferably Open-Source framework. I probably won't live long enough to see this happen; and it may never happen on a large scale, but I fervently wish it would happen, and soon.

No slight intended, but the fact remains, that when one starts from scratch in any new thing at all one is dumb -- not unintelligent and certainly not disinclined to learn, just blank sheets / screens in the brain so to say.

And this is the fun on this site -- learning .

i find it annoying when people complain that linux is too hard....
Linux is not a product you paid for, it was orignonally a hobby, done "just for fun" now its a mass hobby that is done "just for fun"

you should be greatfull that you are getting somthing for free without contributing !
if you dont like it, then its either your mission to improve it, or use a different OS.

well not everyone can be a programmer i might be wrong but to really improve things you need programming skills

thats usually true, whats your point ?

if you dont like the way it works, then imporve it.. if you dont like the way it works and cannot imporve it, or are unwilling to, then dont winge about it.

construcive critisism helps developers make there work better, but cmments like "its too hard, make it easyer" dont help anyone.

lol im just saying to really improve on somthing in lnux to make it worth while is you need some type of programing skills and not everyone is willing to learn a programing language in order to get somthing improved

What I've found out about Linux(and computers in general) is that the quality of the reference material being used makes more difference than the quality of the hardware,OS,and assorted software. If the reference materials are clearly written,understandable by the individual reading them,and accurate,and that's the most important thing to have. Whatever problem the user is having almost certainly has a solution-if the solution can be found before the user is driven to drink from sheer frustration.

I'm a 45 year old blue collar type,who came to computers late(at age 38,for the record),and under protest-the people I was working for had started pretty much requiring email accessibility from their employees.

I started my Linux experiments a couple of years ago,using garage sale equipment,and a stack of books. In fact,I've spent considerably more on the books than on the equipment.

So far,my experiences have been very mixed. Since I'm not an IT type in the first place,I find myself doing a great deal of wheel-reinventing. My computer use is normally limited to email reading/sending,and some web-surfing. In fact,I'd probably be better off with WebTV,but I haven't owned a functioning television in 20 years,and I'm not about to have one of those damned things in my house.

To date,I've found myself more comfortable using the command line than the gui. That way,I'm doing one thing at a time,the computer is doing one thing at a time,and I at least partially understand what's happening.(In fact,sometimes I amaze myself and completely understand what's happening).

My frustrations have been the ones that anyone would encounter learning anything for the first time. I like learning about computers,but I also have to balance the time I spend with computers against the time I spend doing the other activities that I need to complete. In that respect,I'd have to say that Windows is probably better for the casual user.(example-just now I tried to download a pdf file,and it won't open. So-back to the books and the help sections to figure out what isn't there,and then maybe I can get the file opened and printed)

On the other hand,I really don't like using things that I don't understand,which is why I continue my self education process with Linux. It would be really nice to be able to take a couple of classes,but unfortunately,there aren't any available in this area that would be practical for me to enroll in,so I'm limited to finding out about these things by looking at forum sites like this one,reading,more reading,and trying things out.

Let's use on of my beloved metaphors, then:

If you move into a house, and there's things you
don't like about it ...
You can a) learn how to fix things or b) go and pay
someone to fix it for you ...

And a non-option:
c) telling other owners of houses similar to yours
that you don't like yours is not going to help you
with your problem, specially not if the others are
happy with the way their house is. And if others
share your ideas: what are you going to to? Stand
together somewhere, complaining how you'd like
your houses to be different, and try to bully some
builders into making the changes you want to some-
thing that you didn't pay for? How sad is that?


Cheers,
Tink

@ sawsalimb

Um, did you see the LUG section of this site? Maybe you can find support and contacts in your area there...