LinuxQuestions.org
Download your favorite Linux distribution at LQ ISO.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 01-05-2008, 04:59 PM   #91
2damncommon
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Calif, USA
Distribution: PCLINUXOS
Posts: 2,876

Rep: Reputation: 88

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
"Linux was dependent on the Minix userspace at first."
"In an email interview, Torvalds disputed the study's conclusions. "Linux never used Minix code...

Minix, he said, was simply a platform on top of which Torvalds did his programming work."

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1...9155268,00.htm
 
Old 01-05-2008, 06:00 PM   #92
phantom_cyph
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2007
Location: My HDD...
Distribution: WinXP for designing, Linux for life.
Posts: 2,329
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciYro View Post
RMS, is that you?
lol. thats good.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 06:27 PM   #93
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damncommon View Post
"In an email interview, Torvalds disputed the study's conclusions. "Linux never used Minix code...

Minix, he said, was simply a platform on top of which Torvalds did his programming work."

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1...9155268,00.htm

If he did his programming work on MINIX then that would be the platform Linux was first was on... Linux is a kernel and no it wouldn't have used MINIX code, that does not mean that a linux kernel couldn't be used WITH MINIX, it doesn't need to have MINIX code in it to be a kernel for MINIX, there was no GNU code in Linux kernel version 0.11 and they still managed to get Linux kernel 0.12 to run with gnu glibc and start this great wall papering of the name GNU, so this point you seem to try to enforce still means nothing.

Stright from the Linux kernel Wiki:

"MINIX, a Unix-like system intended for academic use, was released by Andrew S. Tanenbaum in 1987. While source code for the system was available, modification and redistribution were restricted. In addition, MINIX's 16-bit design was not well adapted to the 32-bit design of the increasingly cheap and popular Intel 386 architecture for personal computers.

In 1991, Linus Torvalds began to work on a non-commercial replacement for MINIX while he was attending the University of Helsinki.[8] This eventually became the Linux kernel.

Linux was dependent on the MINIX userspace at first. With code from the GNU system freely available, it was advantageous if this could be used with the fledgling OS. Code licensed under the GNU GPL can be used in other projects, so long as they also are released under the same or a compatible license. In order to make the Linux kernel compatible with the components from the GNU Project, Torvalds initiated a switch from his original license (which prohibited commercial redistribution) to the GNU GPL.[9] Linux and GNU developers worked to integrate GNU components with Linux to make a fully functional and free operating system.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#MINIX

If the Wiki is wrong I am sure Linus would have edited it to make it correct. Since he has not I am going to assume it is correct, seeing that is now 2 sources that reference that Linux was indeed dependent on the MINIX user land, I think it's safe to assume it's the truth.

Last edited by proc; 01-05-2008 at 06:35 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 06:48 PM   #94
XavierP
Moderator
 
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Kent, England
Distribution: Debian Testing
Posts: 19,192
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 472Reputation: 472Reputation: 472Reputation: 472Reputation: 472
Would Linus have been able to edit the wiki? Don't they frown on original research?
 
Old 01-05-2008, 07:05 PM   #95
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierP View Post
Would Linus have been able to edit the wiki? Don't they frown on original research?
That being true, Sometimes things on Wiki need to be corrected and they are sometimes, I am sure if this little bit was wrong Linus would have said something by now. But yea most of the data entered is correct. I'd guess maybe 0.2% of wiki is incorrect
 
Old 01-05-2008, 07:06 PM   #96
PatrickMay16
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: London, England.
Distribution: Debian oldstable
Posts: 55

Rep: Reputation: 28
I just wonder. Do these people seriously think you should say "gnu linux"? Or are they just trying to annoy people? Or maybe they're just obsessed with Stallman.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 07:19 PM   #97
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
I think they're just trying to get attention, as Linux seems to get more and more popular, more GNU zealots keeps emerging insisting that "GNU" be part of the Linux name. It is getting to the point were people are getting pissed and going to FreeBSD just because they don't want to deal with this crap.

I still don't understand the obsession of slapping GNU on everything, Inside Windows Xp I have never seen the words "University of Berkeley" on anything or Symantec even on XP's disk manager, the people who wrote MSN didn't rename the chat client to <company>/Messenger... all this is, is just attention whoring crap, if anything will divide the community will will be this, it won't be the patents, it won't be IBM/Microsoft/Sun or Novel it will be GNU and it's outrageous obsession with slapping it's name on everything it can.

And the day it happens people like me will be going on a forking spree.

Last edited by proc; 01-05-2008 at 07:21 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 07:37 PM   #98
2damncommon
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Calif, USA
Distribution: PCLINUXOS
Posts: 2,876

Rep: Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
...so this point you seem to try to enforce still means nothing.
So it seems you have explained to me that V!NCENT's statement that "Linxu first started out as a MINIX kernel" does not mean that Linus started from or used the MINIX kernel code to write Linux but rather you are saying that after he wrote the Linux kernel on the MINIX system he used the Linux kernel in place of the MINIX kernel to run other MINIX programs so that explains how Linux started out as a MINIX kernel.

I will confess that was not apparent to me.

It seems we would agree with another Linus quote: "Torvalds said. "I was using Minix when I wrote Linux, but that's in the same sense that you are using Windows when you write your columns. Do your articles contain Windows source code because you use Windows to write them?"

I know I would not consider this alpha version of Linux a MINIX kernel. I do understand Linus developed Linux on MINIX and used the MINIX filesystem.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 07:45 PM   #99
souneedalink
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 39

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
They are in a way and they aren't in another, basically all the Linux OS is, is a bunch of packages that make up the OS, if this box was intend to be a desktop then yes X.org will be apart of the OS,
But there are some packages which are considered the base system and often are rolled into one "package" and that IS the OS. Everything else goes on top of it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
if I am wrong, then please explain how SuSE, RedHat and just about every other distro out there are wrong too,
(when you select Desktop X.org and there default WM/DE are installed by default),
Uh, because you chose DESKTOP other software is installed besides the OS. The OS would be the base system, the part you cant live without, the part that is crucial and part of that is GNU!

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
oh and I thought GNU was not responsible for hardware? you just told me it was...
Where did I say that? The kernel (which is part of the OS) is responsible for hardware support - the other part of a OS would be the part that allows a user to OPERATE and that would be userland tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
So when there is support for a device inside a kernel but no userland tools how is this (by you GNU guys standards) "linux's" fault... If you are going to call it GNU/Linux then GNU is some what responsible for the hardware support.
what does userland tools have to do with hardware support?
 
Old 01-05-2008, 08:29 PM   #100
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by souneedalink View Post
what does userland tools have to do with hardware support?
A few posts back I already thought I solved this, but apparently not, yes the kernel is responsible for supporting the hardware initially, but without user land support this device is useless, it would be like writing drivers for a physics card but having no programs to use it with... like it or not to the end user this peace of hardware is still not supported, they can't use it so it's not supported. it maybe supported by the kernel, but if the rest of the packages (thats what i am calling Linux from now on) don't support it, it's still not supported.

What part of the GNU can't I live with (that can't be forked)?
You act like GNU is Linux's only hope of doing anything, when that is not true at all.

As the Desktop thing... I thought about that more and you are right, it is just setting on top of base packages.


@ 2damncommon
You learn something everyday , I am just trying to debunk the whole GNU process of "Nothing is without GNU", clearly people need to know the truths, I don't care if every GNU zealot out there states that Linux can't survive or Linux was born on GNU software, the truth is out there regardless of how many claim different, in reality they are only fooling themselves, it's a well documented fact, if they want to make up there own version let them.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 08:41 PM   #101
souneedalink
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 39

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
it's a well documented fact,
can you point out all these documents?

Also, can you tell me what all GNU does provide? Will linux "run" without those? As in, could I have mandrake installed without the things GNU provides?

Last edited by souneedalink; 01-05-2008 at 08:47 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 09:18 PM   #102
Uncle_Theodore
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Charleston WV, USA
Distribution: Slackware 12.2, Arch Linux Amd64
Posts: 896

Rep: Reputation: 69
It's very easy to see how much of GNU stuff goes into a working linux system. If you really want to know, that is.

1) Get the LFS (Linux From Scratch) book here. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/downloads/stable/

2) Look through Section 3.2 that lists all packages needed for building a working system. That is, the one that lets you log in and type "whoami", if nothing else.

3) Put a little check mark against every package on that page that lists gnu.org as its place for download or as its homepage.

You'll see how much of linux is left if you remove all these packages. It's not nothing, but it's pretty darn close...
 
Old 01-05-2008, 09:29 PM   #103
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by souneedalink View Post
can you point out all these documents?

Also, can you tell me what all GNU does provide? Will linux "run" without those? As in, could I have mandrake installed without the things GNU provides?

Wikipedia, Linus's quotes and any other site accept GNU.org that has the history of Linux.

I have posted 2 sites in this thread alone, so if you want them go find them.

And right now the current system can't be ran without GNU tools no, but if the Linux kernel itself was modified to run with GNU tools in the first then there is no reason why it can't be modified again to support it's own tools or someone else's.

It's either that or go back to Linux kernel 0.11 and it's user land utilitys.
 
Old 01-05-2008, 09:37 PM   #104
Uncle_Theodore
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Charleston WV, USA
Distribution: Slackware 12.2, Arch Linux Amd64
Posts: 896

Rep: Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
And right now the current system can't be ran without GNU tools no, but if the Linux kernel itself was modified to run with GNU tools in the first then there is no reason why it can't be modified again to support it's own tools or someone else's.
What makes you think that the kernel was modified to run with GNU tools?
As somebody already said here, kernel is like a car engine. With some degree of ingenuity you can make it run on your garage floor, without any car attached to it. No wheels, transmission or brakes. But it will not take you to a vacation trip this way, running on your garage floor, you see... You need an actual car around it to make it useful. Kernel is the engine. GNU utilities make the car.
Quote:
It's either that or go back to Linux kernel 0.11 and it's user land utilitys.
What's the rush? I like the current state of affairs, why do you wanna break it?
 
Old 01-06-2008, 12:09 AM   #105
proc
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: /dev/urandom
Posts: 70

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Theodore View Post
What makes you think that the kernel was modified to run with GNU tools?
As somebody already said here, kernel is like a car engine. With some degree of ingenuity you can make it run on your garage floor, without any car attached to it. No wheels, transmission or brakes. But it will not take you to a vacation trip this way, running on your garage floor, you see... You need an actual car around it to make it useful. Kernel is the engine. GNU utilities make the car.

What's the rush? I like the current state of affairs, why do you wanna break it?
Exactly and without mounting the engine to the floor it will start to walk on you, then when you open up the throttle it will start to dance and before you know it will start to throw itself around. (this is why cars have motor mounts, to keep the engine in one place in one piece)

The Linux kernel as I have stated and backed up my claim with 2 links (one being Wikipedia) for the 10 hundredth time! Was dependent on MINIX, since we already know this and we know that and we are assuming GNU code is clean the kernel would have had to be modified, either that or gnu tools are just reverse engineered MINIX tools and if that is true then we could just use the older MINX tools as a base to start Linux without GNU, since it seems that people start to think "GNU" is the operating system, let see how much it operates when you have no kernel to operate with.

Last edited by proc; 01-06-2008 at 12:12 AM.
 
  


Reply

Tags
gnu


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where can i get a "call waiting" software for freespire linux? xsladex Linux - Software 1 02-19-2007 03:52 PM
list file system linux supports "please give the command or system call" varun_shrivastava Linux - General 4 01-09-2007 08:28 AM
Any way to get "Alice"; "Call of Duty" series and "Descent 3" to work? JBailey742 Linux - Games 13 06-23-2006 02:34 PM
"Function not implemented" error in call to "sem_open()" Krishnendu8 Linux - Newbie 1 06-07-2003 03:52 AM
"Function not imlemented" error in call to "sem_open()" Krishnendu8 Linux - Networking 0 06-07-2003 03:19 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration