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View Poll Results: X vs Wayland
X should stay and those limitations/bugs should be fixed 1 14.29%
X is old, it's time for a change 5 71.43%
I don't care, I'll use whatever the distro offers 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-09-2013, 12:26 PM   #16
DavidMcCann
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So the X developers say it's too old to update any more. The Gnome developers said that of Gnome 2, yet the Mate team seem to be managing it. Gnome 3, Grub 2, the new version of Anaconda: all these things are a mess. The current motto seems to be "If it ain't broken, break it!" Maybe Wayland will be the answer to all life's problems, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Old 07-09-2013, 01:00 PM   #17
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /dev/random View Post
I can make a similar argument about anything...
I mean if we are going to replace things because they are old, lets get rid of Linux.. its monolithic its 23 years old.. must suck... lets rewrite a completely new kernel... but this time lets just make the core.. we'll let some abstraction layer deal with drivers and other useful functions. We will only make it boot.. oh and its faster!
Lol, yes, I agree.
 
Old 07-09-2013, 03:21 PM   #18
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /dev/random View Post
I get how it works, it doesn't send any data through the X server [etc]
Actually I'm not disgreeing with you - and I didn't say that X was slow. (in fact you're preaching to the choir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
So the X developers say it's too old to update any more. The Gnome developers said that of Gnome 2, yet the Mate team seem to be managing it. Gnome 3, Grub 2, the new version of Anaconda: all these things are a mess. The current motto seems to be "If it ain't broken, break it!" Maybe Wayland will be the answer to all life's problems, but I'm not holding my breath.
You forgot systemd and pulseaudio...
 
Old 07-09-2013, 03:35 PM   #19
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
So the X developers say it's too old to update any more.
Quote:
The current motto seems to be "If it ain't broken, break it!"
That is actually not what they say. I would recommend to just look the video of this Xorg/Wayland developer and think about it. There he explains also why X is slow, why its design is a pain in the a.. to maintain. The same design that prevents certain bugs and security issues from being fixed (and usually adding another layer on an already problematic design will not reduce but increase the problems). Maybe also think about why the Xorg developers spend 5 years of their time to think over a better protocol before they even released its first version.
This is not at all something about being new and cool, so comparisons with certain well known immature projects is not only unfair, it shows that some people only are against some projects because they are new, not because they think they are bad.

Anyways, X is not going anywhere in the not so near future (it will at least be supported by Red Hat until at least the EOL of RHEL 7, more likely RHEL 8). So maybe people can even try to participate in its development, if they want to use it further, and explain to the developers why it is not broken or how they can fix the issues.
 
Old 07-09-2013, 03:52 PM   #20
/dev/random
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
This is not at all something about being new and cool, so comparisons with certain well known immature projects is not only unfair, it shows that some people only are against some projects because they are new, not because they think they are bad.
It's not the fact that it's new, I like new, it's the fact that it doesn't offer anything X already can't.

I've seen a trend going, it seems that new developers (new blood) seem to think that whatever is in place now is not good enough, but then they write code that is equally bad or even worse.

Why do we need pulseaudio? ALSA + JACK can mix any two hardware devices together with ease... If you have a true soundcard (not one of these all in wonder onboard specials, chances are you have true hardware mixing already... so really what is the point of having pluseaudio? It's like having Timidity+ installed when you have a soundcard that can play back MIDI... why do you need this?

Systemd another fine example of someone saying lets break what works and reinvent the wheel, since when does booting become a problem on your machine? I mean this isn't windows you don't need to reboot every 30min. All Systemd did was make writing init scripts harder... yes.. lets complicate the boot process... in fact lets copy the windows version this way we have no clue whats wrong... something.elf crashed at 0x2325350000230AB <insert random register dump here>.

Wayland seems to fit this exact trend and unless it can do something X can't do (which so far it can't)
 
Old 07-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /dev/random View Post
Wayland seems to fit this exact trend and unless it can do something X can't do (which so far it can't)
Tear free rendering.
 
Old 07-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #22
Jeebizz
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I think I will throw my ""

I think Wayland's philosophy is wrong - "replacing X just for the sake of replacing it because it is old" is not the right move. Its like Wayland is the arrogant kid that thinks it can do things a lot better, and X has nothing to offer or teach this young upstart anything. Overall if Wayland ends up just reinventing the wheel, and offer no real benefits I see no point. Sure I am all for something new, but it actually HAS to offer improvements, not just for the sake of replacing something, and claiming it is better, because it is 'new'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Tear free rendering.
So that would be really one of the reasons just to ditch X?

I am like most, until Wayland offers something concrete to the table I don't see X going anywhere anytime soon.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 07-09-2013 at 04:34 PM.
 
Old 07-09-2013, 06:27 PM   #23
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
I think I will throw my ""

I think Wayland's philosophy is wrong - "replacing X just for the sake of replacing it because it is old" is not the right move. Its like Wayland is the arrogant kid that thinks it can do things a lot better, and X has nothing to offer or teach this young upstart anything. Overall if Wayland ends up just reinventing the wheel, and offer no real benefits I see no point. Sure I am all for something new, but it actually HAS to offer improvements, not just for the sake of replacing something, and claiming it is better, because it is 'new'.



So that would be really one of the reasons just to ditch X?

I am like most, until Wayland offers something concrete to the table I don't see X going anywhere anytime soon.
Have you actually informed yourself about Wayland and X before posting this? The Xorg developers themselves explain the flaws in the design of X that make it impossible to fix certain bugs and security issues. It is very difficult to maintain. They are not developing Wayland because they think they should replace X just for the sake of replacing it.
Regarding the tear free rendering, /dev/random asked for just one thing that Wayland can do better than X and I delivered just one thing.
I will leave this thread, since I don't think that it makes sense to discuss a topic with people that don't inform themselves about the topic at all.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #24
/dev/random
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Have you actually informed yourself about Wayland and X before posting this? The Xorg developers themselves explain the flaws in the design of X that make it impossible to fix certain bugs and security issues. It is very difficult to maintain. They are not developing Wayland because they think they should replace X just for the sake of replacing it.
Regarding the tear free rendering, /dev/random asked for just one thing that Wayland can do better than X and I delivered just one thing.
I will leave this thread, since I don't think that it makes sense to discuss a topic with people that don't inform themselves about the topic at all.
Hey TobiSGD,
I have read what the xorg developers say. But in software there are very few things that are impossible, that I doubt, now hard to maintain yes, I fully agree a project of that magnitude would be very hard to maintain.. I am not trying to argue with you, just re-evaluate what they say... Remember these are current x.org developers that say it's impossible, notice there are no older xorg/Free86 developers saying anything (or at least I couldn't find anything.

Oh and using a compiz window manager gets rid of tearing.

Until Wayland destroy's X in pure performance (assuming input and various other functions do not lag) it's just another bad idea just waiting to happen. AMD and Nvidia state they currently have no plans on providing drivers for Wayland because it would require a near complete rewrite. So anyone who want's fast hardware acceleration won't be using Wayland anyways.
 
  


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